TommyGun,
Thanks for the encouragement. Yes all my lifts are raw, I wouldn’t consider gear until I plan to compete. But that’s still a ways out. Must…get…stronger…
This is worth a read:-
Beginner mistakes-pt1: Max Effort Progression.
By Jim Wendler at EFS
Try
www.elitefts.com/documents/beginner_mistakes_jimw.htm
Just my two pennerth
nobby
Good read Nobby, thanks for posting that. I must have overlooked that article; I thought I read everything at EFS!
Big Martin. Yes your point is well taken and very true in the perspective of a competing powerlifter with years of experience behind them. I believe that the original question was posted by Aceohounds in the context of a new lifter trying to get stronger. Under those circumstances would you agree that overhead lifts would be invaluable as a strengthing protocol which would lay a great base for mastering the three big lifts? Let me know if this sounds right to you. I too have enjoyed this post and the tone it is being conducted in.
I beleive if acehound is after a big benchpress then overhead pressing would not help a ton…i think if he beleives his shoulders are the weak point in his bench then yes some dumbell shoulder presses and steep inclines would help…but i find it rare that a benchers shoulders hold him back most the time it is his tricep strength, form or bar speed…because the primary shoulder mover in the bench press is the front delts…if he had just begin training with weigths i would definately have him do some kind of shoulder pressing…but looking at his numbers on his bench its his triceps at a certain transfer spot or his bar speed…i think these should be his primary weak points he needs to develop…some shoulder work could be thrown in to see if it helps him but if it beats his shoulders up he should pull back…but yea i dont think it would help his problem he needs high board presses, 4 inch lockouts…and more speed work…but i agree with you whole heartedly if someone was jsut begining working out and had very little shoulder development i would definately add in shoulder work…and like i said before i do tons of overhead pressing with my athletes…one of my favorites is tthe log clean and press for football players…big martin
Since starting Westside I have pretty much only used straight weight and full ROM. I haven’t even changed ME movements yet because I kept experiencing gains."
That is the problem. I did this when I first started Westside and I gained about 50 lbs on my bench in about 4 weeks. It was great and then it stalled, and stalled some more. The simple reason is you are defeating the purpose of CONJUGATED PERIODIZATION if you are maxing on the bench press every week. When it stalled I even tried to use a linear periodization (working down from a 10RM (week 1) 8RM (week 2), etc. on a full range benchpress and squat as my ME move. You could try that but it did nothing for me and I gained negligable strength. Then I pondered the CONJUGATED part and eventually started changing moves. I realized that my lockout was (and still is) holding me back. Although I am not as strong as you and weigh nowhere near what you weigh, from my experience I would insist on changing ME moves and suggest that your lockout needs work. Board presses are probably a necessity. The negative will make your chest real sore but the board presses will improve your pressing strength. Plus it will be a considerable boost actually pressing that 400 in a limited range of motion rather than watching it slowing descend to choke you.
I agree with BigMartin, my weakness is tricep strength. I’ve never done any board presses but I intend to start.
Thinkin- You said what I have been thinking. Need to change up the ME movements. I think the board pressing will help my lockout which is where I miss lifts. I’m pretty explosive off the chest, then stall about 6 inches shy of a full lockout. I was thinking of trying some floor presses as well.
Even if you switch between full range movements (ie. incline, decline, different grips, etc.) it may help. Although my bench did not kick back into gear until I was able to overload on partial movements to hit the triceps. Interestingly enough I can tell whether my bench is gonna go up now on whether my secondary tricep move is increasing. Rack presses can work also but kill any kind of groove I may have. As far as board presses use BOOKS or something similar. No need to wait.
I have learned a lot from this thread and it has made me think a lot about this stuff.
I am still of the opinion that the original ME workout is light on volume. The Jim Wendler article was in the back of my mind when I originally said that ( I had forgotten where I read it or I would have referenced it).
I can also appreciate that too heavy a volume will take the top off a 1RM workout.
As I am not as strong or experienced as many of you ( less than 2 yrs lifting heavy, 1RM bench 255, 1RM squat 320), I find the max effort days ‘too easy’ if the volume is low enough to have a lot left for the ‘record’ lift.
What I’ve been doing is a lot of ME days with high volume and a 2RM top that is usually 90+% of my 1RM.
I think this is because I don’t have enough experience or enough lifts under my belt and I need the work/volume to make improvements.
Every fourth week or so, I’ll do a true 1RM instead of the big volume 2RM workout.
Is this a good approach? should I do 3 workouts per week - ME, DE, and volume day?
Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated.
Sorry I snoozed on this thread guys.
Dan, I would agree that working the retractors would improve the bench press of most lifters, however there are better choices of exercises than a prone shrug.
I tend to agree with King in the sense that you can’t balance out a compound movement with an isolation movement. So I tend to prescribe supported rows and deadlifts as opposed to isolation type exercises. I do use those isolation exercises as recruitment cues, so they do have a place in a pre-fatigue sequence or as a warm up/GPP type of thing that Martin uses.
I would also agree that the front plate raises are an excellent means of increasing bench press. In fact, the use of the plate raises and the decline supine shrugs (which is a cool idea as well) are for the exact same reason that I’d do overhead work. To affect the serratus to increase shoulder girdle stability.
So we’re all looking for the same effect. I understand about the shoulders being beaten up. Seems to be the nature of the beast though.
Last thing. Poliquin gave Louie his props for the Pin Presses. He always does and so do I. Thanks for all the input and sorry got back to everyone late.