Supplements for Hormone/Testosterone Balance

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
and to answer your question these are the labs

Labs done 22MAY2012
Thyroglobulin, quantitative:____(26.6)…ng/ml…range: .5 - 55.0

Antithyrogloulin Ab_____________(<20)…IU/mL…range: 0 - 40

Testosterone, free and total
Testosterone, Serum_____________(330)…ng/dL…range: 348 - 1197 (obviously low)
Free Testosterone (direct)______(10.5)…pg/mL…range: 9.3 - 26.5

t4 free (direct_________________(1.34)…ng/dl…range:.82 - 1.77

DHEA-Sulfate____________________(429.6)…ug/dL…range: 211.0 - 492.0

TSH_____________________________(2.910)…uIU/mL…range: .450 - 4.500

Estradiol_______________________(40.8)…pg/mL…range: 7.6 - 42.6

Androstenedione LCMS____________(77)…ng/dL…range: 44 - 186

prostate-specific Ag, serum_____(.3)…ng/mL…range: 0.0 - 4.0

Reverse T3, serum______________(24.3)…ng/dL…range: 13.5 - 34.2

Estrogens, Total_______________(104)…pg/mL…range: adult male 40 - 115

Thyroid Peroxidase (tpo) Ab____(12)…IU/mL…range: 0-34

Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum__(3.7)…pg/mL…range: 2.0 - 4.4

Cortisol - AM__________________(26.7)…ug/dL…range: 6.2 - 19.4 (HIGH)

LABS 16 MARCH 2012 HIGHLIGHTS

FSH____________________________(2.4)…range: 1.5-12.4

prolactin tot__________________(8.37)…range: 4.6 - 21.4

Estradiol______________________(48.45)…range: 7.63 - 42.60

25OH VIT D TOT_________________(32)…range: 30 - 100
25OH VIT D2____________________(<4)
DHEA SO4_______________________(416)…range: 110-510

LH_____________________________(4.7)…range: 1.7 - 8.6 [/quote]

Can’t you get HRT with those levels?

HRT or DAA + Trimethylglycine ftw. Best “natty” stack for boosting test IMO. Tribulus is garbage, sorry.

Time and time again I see people recommending the use of Tribulus for boosting testosterone. Its a shame that people somehow still believe or want to believe this compound is worth spending any money on. Since this column is about the science, let’s see what’s out there.

In a study done at the Human Performance Lab in NV the researchers found that “Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males.” (1) The Swiss Laboratory for Doping Analyses did a short term study to see if using tribulus would effect the hormone levels of athletes who compete in drug tested events. (2) What were their findings? “The short-term treatment with Tribulus terrestris showed no impact on the endogenous testosterone metabolism of the two subjects.”

Now I know what you are thinking, it was only two subjects, how about something with a bigger test group. No problem. How about 22 elite male Australian rugby athletes, certainly that’s a good group of people to test tribulus on.(3) By now you may have guessed that the outcome was not good. Specifically they found “no between-group differences were noted in the urinary T/E ratio. It was concluded that T. terrestris did not produce the large gains in strength or lean muscle mass that many manufacturers claim can be experienced within 5-28 days.”

The results also backed up the Swiss Lab study by finding that “T. terrestris did not alter the urinary T/E ratio and would not place an athlete at risk of testing positive based on the World Anti-Doping Agency’s urinary T/E ratio limit of 4:1.” The final nail in the coffin comes in this last study done in Bulgaria. (4) Neychev and Mitev from the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry at the Medical University in Sofia Bulgaria tested tribulus in twenty-one healthy young 20-36 years old men with body weight ranging from 60 to 125 kg. They concluded “tribulus terrestris steroid saponins possess neither direct nor indirect androgen-increasing properties.”

So what is the quick and easy take home message? If you are a man or women who wants to gain muscle, lose fat, increase testosterone or any other natural anabolic or androgenic hormones then DO NOT USE TRIBULUS!

1.The effects of Tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained males.

Antonio J, Uelmen J, Rodriguez R, Earnest C. Human Performance Laboratory, University of Nebraska, Kearney, NE 68849-3101, USA.

  1. Short term impact of Tribulus terrestris intake on doping control analysis of endogenous steroids.

Saudan C, Baume N, Emery C, Strahm E, Saugy M.
Swiss Laboratory for Doping Analyses, Institut Universitaire de M?decine L?gale, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire Vaudois and University of Lausanne, Chemin des Croisettes 22, 1066 Epalinges, Switzerland.
3. The effect of five weeks of Tribulus terrestris supplementation on muscle strength and body composition during preseason training in elite rugby league players.

Rogerson S, Riches CJ, Jennings C, Weatherby RP, Meir RA, Marshall-Gradisnik SM.
School of Exercise Science and Sport Management, Southern Cross University Lismore, New South Wales, Australia.

  1. The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men.
    Neychev VK, Mitev VI.
    Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Medical University, 2 Zdrave str., Sofia-1431, Bulgaria.

http://www.waset.org/journals/waset/v57/v57-75.pdf

B. Biological Activity on Male Mice
1: Effect T. terrestris extracts on free serum testosterone
level in male mice
T.terrestris has stimulating effect on spermatogenesis by
increase in the amount of Luteinizing Hormone (LH)
produced by Pituitary gland, which stimulate the secretion of
male hormone ‘Testosterone’, resulting in significant
improvement in quality and quantity of sperm. [12-15]. In the
present work tribulus terrestris extracts show increasing of
free serum testosterone level in male mice (Table III).

3: Effect of methanolic extract of T. terrestris in diabetes
management
50 mg/kg body wt. concentration of methanolic extract of
T. terrestris produces significant decrease in blood glucose
level, after 4 and 6 hours of treatment as compared to
untreated diabetic mice. After 4 and 6 hours of treatment, the
percent of reduction in blood glucose level produced by T.
terrestris (43±4.1), (41±3.4).

After three weeks of treatment,
blood glucose level in diabetic mice treated with T. terrestris
decreases (60%) to below normal level. Treatment of diabetic
mice by T. terrestris extract resulted in significant decrease in
serum triglycerides TAG, total cholesterol TC and low density
lipoprotein cholesterol LDL as compared to untreated
diabetic.

IV. CONCLUSION
The solvent extracts of T. terrestris showed good
antibacterial activity against Gram positive and Gram negative
bacteria. Methanolic extract showed very good activity as
testosterone producer in serum tested animals.
In addition the
methanolic extract of T. terrestris produces significant
decrease in blood glucose level of diabetic mice.

Abstract
Hormonal effects of Tribulus terrestris (TT) were evaluated in primates, rabbit and rat to identify its usefulness in the management of erectile dysfunction (ED). TT extract was administered intravenously, as a bolus dose of 7.5, 15 and 30 mg/kg, in primates for acute study. Rabbits and normal rats were treated with 2.5, 5 and 10mg/kg of TT extract orally for 8 weeks, for chronic study. In addition, castrated rats were treated either with testosterone cypionate (10mg/kg, subcutaneously; biweekly for 8 weeks) or TT orally (5mg/kg daily for 8 weeks).

Blood samples were analyzed for testosterone (T), dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEAS) levels using radioimmunoassay. [b]In primates, the increases in T (52%), DHT (31%) and DHEAS (29%) at 7.5mg/kg were statistically significant. In rabbits, both T and DHT were increased compared to control, however, only the increases in DHT (by 30% and 32% at 5 and 10mg/kg) were statistically significant.

In castrated rats, increases in T levels by 51% and 25% were observed with T and TT extract respectively that were statistically significant. TT increases some of the sex hormones, possibly due to the presence of protodioscin in the extract.[/b] TT may be useful in mild to moderate cases of ED.

and LOL at the T/E ratio being mentioned in that article. we arent on AAS here boosting our testosterone to supra physiological levels. tribulus is being used in our case to bring us from LOW to NORMAL testosterone levels. all these human studies are expecting AAS lab values and strength results from an herb. sometimes you have to say fuck it to the “studies” and rely on broscience and your own blood tests.

Tribulus PLANT will NOT increase Testosterone levels. However, a STANDARDIZED Tribulus Extract containing at least 10% Protodioscin will most definitely increase testosterone production.

Bulgarian Tribulus has been used to effectively increase testosterone levels for decades. In fact, the pharmaceutical company called “Sopharma Bulgaria” launched a huge research project into the herb ALMOST 20 YEARS AGO, and as a consequence of these studies, brought the very first high-grade effective Tribulus preparation to the PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY(and later the supplement market), called “Tribestan”. These studies found that Tribulus’ active components are steroidal saponins of the furostanol type, isolated from the epigeous part of the Tribulus terrestris L. plant. Therefore, Tribestan was standardized on a base of the predominating compound, protodioscin.

Here are the studies from Sopharma that demonstrate Tribulus(Protodioscin) Increases Testosterone:

TRIBESTAN EFFECT ON THE CONCENTRATION OF SOME HORMONES IN THE SERUM OF HEALTHY SUBJECTS

S. Milanov, A. Maleeva, M. Taskov

RIRR - Radioisotope and Radioimmunological Laboratory, Sofia

Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute,
Sofia, Bulgaria

SUMMARY

Tribestan effect has been studied on the serum concentration of hypophyseal hormones, of ACTH, STH, LH, FSH, adrenal hormone aldosterone and cortisol and sex hormones - testosterone and estradiol. The experiments have been carried out on 8 males and 8 females, aged 28 - 45 years of age. The product was perorally administered in a single dose of 250 mg, three times daily for 5 days.

Serum samples were withdrawn at 8 a.m. and 12 a.m., prior to and post treatment. The product has been established not to change essentially the concentrations of adrenal hormones and of ACTH. The hypophyseal-gonadal axis however has significantly been affected in the females with predominantly increased concentration of FSH and estradiol and in the males - mainly of LH and the testosterone. The mechanism of that action is presumed to be complicated and realized both by direct effect on gonadal apparatus and by the tropic hormones.
The probable established changes in the concentration of the hormones studied do not get out of the frames of the physiological limits.

The lyophilized extract of Tribulus terrestris, introduced in veterinary practice as TB-68, has pronounced sex-stimulating function. The initial studies of this product showed that it stimulates the spermatogenesis of albino rats (Vankov S., et al., 1973) and enhanced the ovulation of female rats (Vankov S. et al. 1973). Zarkova S. (1976) has also established in rats an increased number of spermatogonia, spermatocytes as well as increase of neutral mucopolysaccharides in seminiferous tubules of the testes. Gendzhev Z. and S. Zarkova, in other experiments (1978) proved the increase of spermatic reserve in the epididymis of rats.

With the view to the need of human medicine of a product stimulating sexual function, Tribestan was formulated on the base of the indicated phytochemical product. It contains saponins of furostanol type (Tomova M. et al., 1978). The first studies of Tribestan confirmed its high sex-stimulating activity in experimental animals (Zarkova S., 1981). Later, the clinical studies established a similar stimulating effect in humans as well (Protich M. at al. 1981). The present study was carried out with a view to throwing light on some aspects of the mechanism of that action of Tribestan, aiming at attaining an effect from the product on the serum concentration of some hypophyseal, sexual and adrenal hormones.

MATERIALS AND METHODS

The experiments were performed on 16 subjects (8 females and 8 males), aged 28-45. All subjects were in good health, without any complaints and good capacity for work. The following schedule was used:

  1. The basic levels of hypophysiotropic hormones (ACTH, STH, LH, FSH), of sexual hormones (testosterone and estradiol) and of adrenal hormones (aldosterone and cortisol) were determined. They were determined twice, at 8 a.m. and 12 p.m. - one day prior to Tribestan treatment.
  2. The treatment with the product was initiated on the following day, which was periodically administered, 250 mg, three times daily for 5 days.
  3. After the termination of Tribestan treatment (day sixth after the initiation of the experiment), blood was again withdrawn (at the same hour - 8:00 a.m. and 12 p.m.) for the determination of the concentration of the indicated hormones.

The work proceeded in the following way: after centrifugation of 6 - 8 ml blood, the serum obtained was frozen at 20?C till the day of the determination of hormonal concentration. The determination was performed by radioimmune tests. LH and FSH were determined by the modified method of Midgley A.R., (1967), making use of some kits of Biodata company, Italy and ACTH and STH - according to the method of Berson S.A. and R. S. Yalow (1963).

Testosterone was evaluated by the method of William R. H. (1968), and of estradiol by Orezyk G.P. et al. (1974), making use of kits of Sorin Company, Belgium for both hormones. The adrenal hormones cortisol and aldosterone were also determined by kits of that company, making use of Vescei P. (1974) and of William G and R. Hunderwood (1974).

The obtained results were statistically processed by variation analysis, by Student - t test.

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION

As could be seen from Table 1, LH level in the males was elevated with a high significance after the treatment (p < 0.001). The changes affected both samples to the same rate (at 8 a.m. and 12 p.m.). FSH concentration was not affected under the same conditions. The other two hypophyseal hormones, ACTH and STH were not changed.

An insignificant tendency to elevation was observed in STH level (mean values - 2.9 prior to and 3.2 mg/ml post treatment) in some of the cases. The level of sex hormones was strongly affected. Thus testosterone concentration was three-fold (2) increased and that of estradiol - about 1.5 times (Table 1).

Table 1
Hormone Prior to Tribestan
Post Tribestan

8 a.m.
12 p.m.
8 a.m.
12 p.m.

LH, mIU/ml X 13.0 14.38(1) 37.25 24.75
SX 0.64 0.73 1.01 0.79
Pt 0.001 0.001
FSH, mIU/ml X 13.38 13.50 13.38 11.38
SX 0.35 0.28 0.35 0.36
Pt >0.5 >0.5
Testosterone, ng % X 628 610 882 845
SX 48 46 35 32
Pt <0.001 <0.001
Estradiol pg/ml X 79 76 133 137.5
SX 3.46 2.24 6.72 5.86
Pt <0.001 <0.001

LH concentration was also increased in females under Tribestan effect. What impressed was that the significance was lower than the first sample. The greatest discrepancy, as compared with the results of the males, was the sharp stimulation of FSH. A strong effect was observed there, which could be explained by blood withdrawal during the early phase of the menstrual cycle, the so-called follicular phase. Estradiol was also strongly affected (Pt < 0.001), whereas testosterone in the females during the early hours of the day was less affected (Table 2).

Table 2
Hormone
Prior to Tribestan
Post Tribestan

8 a.m.
12 p.m.
8 a.m.
12 p.m.

LH, mIU/ml X 15.25 13.50 17.13 16.88
SX 0.64 0.87 0.73 0.35
Pt 0.02 0.001
FSH, mIU/ml X 11.00 11.88 17.75 15.25
SX 0.13 0.09 0.71 0.38
Pt 0.001 0.001
Estradiol mIU/ml X 72.13 59.38 77.13 87.50
SX 6.02 5.73 5.47 3.24
Pt 0.5 0.001

The level of adrenal hormone was identically affected both in males and females (Table 3). A significant increase of the concentration was also established though that effect had a relatively low significance (p < 0.05). At the same time, cortisol level was no changed (Table 3).

Table 3
Aldosterone Cortisol
Prior to Post Prior to Post
X 11.59 13.77 8.63 8.63
S 2.52 3.48 2.20 1.92
SX 0.63 0.87 0.55 0.48
Pt 0.05 0.05

The results obtained provided grounds to admit that Tribestan had a pronounced stimulating effect on the secretion of some hormones. The effect on the hormones along the hypophyseal-gonadal axis was particularly well manifested. The effect was manifested both at hypophyseal and gonadal level. Some sexual discrepancies were also established. Thus, FSH was mainly affected in the females.

The presence of that hormone is exceptionally important during the follicular phase for the development of the follicle. When its development is stimulated, its secretory ability is also intensified and hence - estradiol level is elevated. Lutenizing hormone is more strongly influenced in the male, which on its part stimulates the secretion of testosterone.

ACTH and cortisol were not changed suggesting that they were not significantly involved in the realization of Tribestan effects. The tendency of stimulation of STH and aldosterone explained the activation of the anabolic processes in the body and general stimulating action of the product. The absence of effect on the level of cortisol showed however that the general tonic action was very strongly manifested.

It should be stressed that the level of the hormones studied did not go out beyond the physiological frames i.e. it did not disturb the physiological mechanisms of hormonal regulation.

References

Vankov S., S. Zarkova, Z. Gendzhev, M. Tomova - Effect of TB-68 on the spermatogenesis in albino rats. Proceeding of the Third National Conference of Pharmacology and Clinics of New Bulgarian Drugs, Sofia, November 14-16, 1973, v.2, 161-163.
Vankov S., S. Zarkova, M. Tomova - TB-68 effect on ovulation of albino rats. Proceedings of Third National Conference of Pharmacology and Clinics of New Bulgarian Drugs, Sofia, November 14-16, 1973, v.2, 165-167.
Gendzhev Z., S. Zarkova - Effect of the phyto-pharmaceutical TB-68 on the number of spermatozoa in epididymis of rat. Med. Archive, 1978, N I, 113-118.
Dimova P., M. Taskov - Comparative enzyme-histological studies of some phyto-products. MBI (at the printer’s), 1981.
Zarkova S. - Morphological and histological changes in testes of rat under the effect of TB-68, Med. Archive, 1976, N 4, 49-53.
Protich M., D. Zvetanov, V. Nalbanski, R.Stanislavov, M.Kazarova - Clinical trial of Tribestan on infertile males, MBI (at the printer’s).
Tomova M., V. Gyulemetova, S. Zarkova - Author’s certificate N 77584 A 61 K 35/1978.
Berson S.A., R. S. Yalow - Immunoassay of protein hormones, The Hormones, Vol. V, Acad. Press., New York, 1963.
Midgley A.R. - Radioimmunoassay for Human, J. Clin. Endocr., 1967, 27, 295.
Orezyk, Gaylo P., Burton v. Caldwell, Harold H. Behrmaan - Methods of Hormone Radioimmunoassay - Ed. B. Jaffe, H. Berhmaan, A6. Press, NJ, London, 1974, 333-343.
Vescei P. - Glicocorticoids: Cortisol Corticosterone - Methods of Hormone Radioimmunoassay; Ed. B. Jaffe and H. Behrmaan, Ac. Press, NJ, London 393-412.
William R.H. - Textbook of Endocrinology 4th Edit. Saunder, Philadelphia, 1968.
Williams Gordon H., Richard H. Hunderwood - Methods of Hormon Radioimmunoassay; Ed. B. Jaffe and H. Behrmaan, Ac. Press, NJ, London, 1974, 371-390.

Milanov, S., E. Maleeva, M. Tashkov. Tribestan effect on the concentration of some hormones in the serum of healthy subjects (Company documentation)(1981).

The original purpose for tribulus terrestris extract was as a ?tonic? to treat sexual dysfunction. In animal husbandry studies tribulus extract was shown to stimulate rutting behavior (i.e. attempting to score) in rams as well as boars. When the supplement Tribestan was given to healthy men (Milanov, 1981) in a dose of 750 milligrams per day for five days, LH and testosterone were elevated 72% and 40% respectively.

As you might expect, estradiol was also elevated. In fact estradiol was elevated by 81%! The increase in testosterone is obviously what all the fuss is about, nevertheless, you can?t ignore the fact that whenever you increase testosterone you are going to increase aromatization and therefore estrogen levels. To put these changes in hormone levels into perspective, the reference range for testosterone in men is between 300-1,000 ng/dL.

The subjects in this study started out with an average of 600 ng/dL and ended up with about 850 ng/dL. This is still well within the “normal” range for men. Estradiol on the other hand went from normal levels of about 76 pg/ml to significantly elevated levels of 137.5 pg/ml. This is well above normal levels which range from about 20-80 pg/ml in men.

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
why is your test low?
Why is your E high?
Why morning cortisol issues?

You should answer those questions first rather than just start dosing with something. [/quote]

I really really really have no answer other than im stressed out all the time. I cant tell the difference if im truly stressed out with life anymore or the stress is a symptom of my shitty hormone levels.
[/quote]

paulieserafini -

You had blood labs so I assume you’re working with a doctor? If not, find one. The first thing you need to do is find out if your “low T” is primary or secondary hypogonadism (or other cause). If you’re primary, OTC supps will do nothing for you. The cost of seeing your doctor will be magnitudes less than blindly buying shit that will do little to nothing for you.

Effects on mice =/= same thing in humans.

Tribulus is still crap compared to DAA. There’s no reason to use it anymore.

EDIT: did not see second page.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree :slight_smile:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
What sort of test do you order to get hormones checked? What do I tell my doctor?

<— Complete noob when it comes to this stuff[/quote]

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
also, all the magnesium forms are kind of shitty in those products (oxide/aspartate). Look for glycinate, orotate, taurate, etc…[/quote]

Really? I thought mag aspartate had pretty good absorption considering it is the chelate used in Biotest, and every other manufacturer, ZMA.[/quote]

the glycinate form is used in ElitePro :wink:

for hormones go with salivary testing. Dr. Bryan Walsh naturopath has an article on this site I believe about it. If not, it’s on PN.

So for the guys that are wondering I am working with a doctor. But im not confident in his approach to trt. and he is very hesitant to give me trt. He is a fucking idiot.

my next option is an anti aging clinic that wants 250-300 dollars a month not even including hcg which they charge an aditional 190 dollars for.
(not covered by insurance)

So i’m going to start with some ZMA. I’ll probably just buy a regular old optimum nutrition brand it’s like 25 bucks for a two month supply so why not.

I’m going to keep taking vit D3 6,000 iu a day.

and my rhodiola supplement (300mg rhodiola rosea)(root) (hydroethanolic extract (min. 16.2 mg total rosavins and min 2.7 mg salidrosides) once 30 minutes before breakfast

i’ll try that for a bit and see if anything changes.

my next appointment with the endo is 25 june.

yeah i guess ill give this stuff a try and if it doesn’t work i see no option other than to try the herbal route and if the herbal route doesnt work im just going to have to jump on trt.

because realistically my sleep is stellar, my diet is pretty nutritionally balanced i dunno what else to fix.

now makes a Tribulus Terrestris (Standardized Extract) (Min. 45% Saponins) (Aerial Parts And Fruit)
1000mg per serving.

would this be a good trib to try?

MAF it blows my mind that your testosterone improved so much from this herb? was that the only thing you were taking that could have made that huge of a difference?

how do i know which zinc is good or magnesium. is ?zinc picolinate good?

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
MAF it blows my mind that your testosterone improved so much from this herb? was that the only thing you were taking that could have made that huge of a difference?

[/quote]

Yes BUT I had absolutely ZERO improvements in strength or body comp bc the SHBG and E2 rose with it - homeostasis.

Also, looked back at my labs and FREE testosterone was less than 1% higher than before starting trib… I gotta agree with Way on this one, not at all worth. Money better spent of EFA’s, Vit D, Zinc etc.

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
how do i know which zinc is good or magnesium. is ?zinc picolinate good?[/quote]

Well when my T was about 10 points above low I used picolinate b/c that was what was recommended to me. Had bloodwork done and it did bring my test up over the mean @ 30mg every morning/empty stomach. From what I understand any chelated Magnesium will do. Citrate, aspartate, glycinate etc.

Also, it’s no surprise your test or thyroid levels would be off considering cortisol is high. When fixing hormonal issues it should go Adrenals—>Thyroid—>Testosterone.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Effects on mice =/= same thing in humans.

Tribulus is still crap compared to DAA. There’s no reason to use it anymore.[/quote]

DAA is the shit, im not arguing that haha. ive gone through 6 bottles of the stuff. my problem is i feel fucking amazing for the first 2 weeks. after those 2 weeks my estrogen picks up and i start retaining water and feel like shit. even on the highest dose of strongest OTC suicide aromatase inhibitor i could find.

i wish i could get my hands on some arimidex :frowning:

even if i could though, im too chicken shit to use pharmaceuticals :slight_smile:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

now makes a Tribulus Terrestris (Standardized Extract) (Min. 45% Saponins) (Aerial Parts And Fruit)
1000mg per serving.

would this be a good trib to try?

[/quote]

thats the one ive used. good stuff. although the pills are enormous. truly horse pills.

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

Yes BUT I had absolutely ZERO improvements in strength or body comp bc the SHBG and E2 rose with it - homeostasis.

Also, looked back at my labs and FREE testosterone was less than 1% higher than before starting trib… [/quote]

3,4 divanil and an aromatase inhibitor.