T Nation

Supplemental Lifts For Sheiko


#1

Hello all

I've been doing Sheiko since January of this year and have made great progress so far. However as of late I've noticed my squat has started to take a turn for the worse in terms of speed, form and recovery from one session to the next even though my caloric intake is in the surplus realm, conditioning is low intensity and I get plenty of sleep.

Just yesterday a friend of mine who also runs Sheiko(CMS/MS Prep) suggested I do box squats for the second round of squats for a few cycles. He says he's currently doing it and has worked well. However before making big changes I wanted to ask veteran members here as to what their opinion(s) are regarding this situation. Criticism, comments, advice is all welcome.


#2

You train @ Idolmakers in Miami, you have Eric Talmant, a world authority on Sheiko, yet you ask for advice on it here?

Eric will punch you in the neck if you talk about using box squats.

Sheiko is meant to be used in competition form, you walk out your squats, you sink them, you pause your benches. ect


#3

I hardly ever post, but I have alot of experience with Sheiko so I’ll throw my opinion in the ring for this one.

  1. I think most people are biting off more than they can chew by doing the MS/CMS cycles. Most likely, you aren’t recovering well enough to make these cycles work well, especially if you have only been training like this for a few months. I did Sheiko for almost a year before switching to the advanced stuff and I felt like I should have stayed with the basics longer. I total well over elite both raw and in gear so I’m technically advanced enough for it, but I still think it’s a bit much except when I run heavy doses leading up to meets. The vast majority of the time, I run a variant of the regular programs that only have 3 training days in a week. It works better for me because I don’t get as beat up from it.

  2. This is just an opinion too, but I think doing ANY conditioning on top of this training style is retarded. I tried it too at first, but it just isn’t necessary with all the volume, assuming you move at a decent pace. It’s just burning extra calories that could be used to recover. At best it’s a small hindrance to recovery and a source of constant fatigue. At worst, it could lead to adrenal fatigue or other endocrine imbalances (think cortisol). Before you guys say I’m exaggerating here, try it. If you do Sheiko correctly, you shouldn’t have much left in the tank to begin with, much less enough to slog through cardio. Besides, you use the aerobic energy system literally all the time. It’s the energy system responsible for the recovery from all the insane volume. Taxing it again is not productive with this training style. Don’t get caught up in the CrossFit mentality of being well-rounded. That’s not what Sheiko is about.

  3. If you are dead-set on using the advanced programs anyway, split them into two-a-days. That allows you to control the fatigue a little bit and get some calories and fluid in you.


#4

[quote]strengthstudent wrote:

  1. I think most people are biting off more than they can chew by doing the MS/CMS cycles. Most likely, you aren’t recovering well enough to make these cycles work well[/quote]

He’s not doing the advanced cycles (although he said his friend is doing MS/CMS); in his log, he is on Sheiko #30 right now. Would this change your advice for him? Obviously your recommendations on conditioning would still stand, just wondering what your experience might suggest for a beginner beyond that.


#5

Agreed with StrengthStudent.

I just finished 29-30-31-32 and put 80lbs on my squat, 35lbs on my bench, and 45lbs on my deadlift. For the main lifts, do them as they are. For the assistance, keep it easy. I actually skipped assistance frequently and when I did them I usually did light weight back/biceps stuff rather than what’s prescribed. Funny that I never did any leg assistance on it and my squat went up the most. The key was using perfect competition form every rep.


#6

[quote]Curls4Girls wrote:
You train @ Idolmakers in Miami, you have Eric Talmant, a world authority on Sheiko, yet you ask for advice on it here?

Eric will punch you in the neck if you talk about using box squats.

Sheiko is meant to be used in competition form, you walk out your squats, you sink them, you pause your benches. ect[/quote]

Yes I know Eric trains there and I’ve spoken, or rather texted him about Sheiko and supposedly he has his own version which he has yet to send to me. Box Squats are included in Sheiko’s book for the squat as SPP so I don’t think Boris would have listed them there if he didn’t feel they were useful.

If you look through Eric’s old EFS log you’ll see he does variations on some of his lifts like chain benches and lockouts and for the record he’s not doing Sheiko anymore.


#7

Also I forgot to add that the only modifications I made to the programme was swapping out developmental work in the template for chins, rows, GHRs,etc and I did a few cycles of Rev Band DLs in place of rack pulls.


#8

[quote]DmitryKlokovFan wrote:

[quote]Curls4Girls wrote:
You train @ Idolmakers in Miami, you have Eric Talmant, a world authority on Sheiko, yet you ask for advice on it here?

Eric will punch you in the neck if you talk about using box squats.

Sheiko is meant to be used in competition form, you walk out your squats, you sink them, you pause your benches. ect[/quote]

Yes I know Eric trains there and I’ve spoken, or rather texted him about Sheiko and supposedly he has his own version which he has yet to send to me. Box Squats are included in Sheiko’s book for the squat as SPP so I don’t think Boris would have listed them there if he didn’t feel they were useful.

If you look through Eric’s old EFS log you’ll see he does variations on some of his lifts like chain benches and lockouts and for the record he’s not doing Sheiko anymore.[/quote]

The version you are talking about is a form of Sheiko that was not released to the public when Eric and the team published a bunch of Sheikos other templates.

Also, if you read his stuff you will notice he does not advise the use of chains/boxes, ect unless you have achieved a certain level.

With running Sheiko properly you will continually advance in the competition lifts. The use of chains ect is more of a technique for MS and above in the Sheiko templates.

And in regards to outside conditioning and the person who advised not to, Sheiko leaves room for a lot of GPP work to be done on the off days. Especially if you have not achieved CMS or MS level yet.


#9

I’m doing the Sheiko Comp program now and completed an MS/CMS cycle for 4 weeks previous to this program. I feel that I have no ability to do any other lifting or training other than the protocol Sheiko demands. If you are using the percentages called for then rest and recuperation are imperative between lifting days.


#10

Gorilla, you are on the older side of 30 are you not? Perhaps that has an influence on why you are not able to push accessory on the side?

If you follow Sheiko perfectly, all reps, all squats walked out and to depth, all benches paused, all sets hit then yeah it should be hell, but you should be able to push accessory (GPP) to get you into better shape in order to move up as an athlete quicker in the program. As long as you are only doing the 3-day template or 4 day CMS/MS ones you have more than enough recovery time for accessory work/conditioning. It is the 5 day + MS/MSIC programs that will probably require you to re-evaluate AM


#11

[quote]grappling_hook wrote:

[quote]strengthstudent wrote:

  1. I think most people are biting off more than they can chew by doing the MS/CMS cycles. Most likely, you aren’t recovering well enough to make these cycles work well[/quote]

He’s not doing the advanced cycles (although he said his friend is doing MS/CMS); in his log, he is on Sheiko #30 right now. Would this change your advice for him? Obviously your recommendations on conditioning would still stand, just wondering what your experience might suggest for a beginner beyond that.[/quote]

I misread his post and thought he was doing the advanced stuff. But the gist of my advice wouldn’t change. People should either do the main work as written or pick another program. The only wiggle room is with the assistance work, where I typically do upper back work instead of flys and additional pec work. The whole point of the main work is to use your competition form to improve skill so I don’t think box squats are needed or desirable. I’ve seen alot of people become dependent on the box who then have trouble getting depth at meets because they don’t have the box to tell them where they’re at. It’s a good tool for guys with no depth issues and tons of skill, which precludes the vast majority of lifters. It’s the same story with chains, bands, floor presses, and the like. Unless you are the top of the top, I think you’re better off with a more basic approach that includes heavy emphasis on skill development for the competition lifts. (again, just an opinion, but most people aren’t as advanced as they think)


#12

[quote]strengthstudent wrote:
[u]The whole point of the main work is to use your competition form to improve skill so I don’t think box squats are needed or desirable.[/u] [/quote]

THIS. Look at Weber, who ran Sheiko for a good amount of years and is now a 2,000 + true raw (no wraps/walked out) lifter. If you run Sheiko correctly you will move up in strength but most importantly perfect your competition form. The volume of squats teaches you to always swuat to depth, perfect your walk out/bar position/ ect. Save the cute stuff like chains, ect for when you are at a higher level and have already mastered your form ect.


#13

[quote]Curls4Girls wrote:

[quote]strengthstudent wrote:
[u]The whole point of the main work is to use your competition form to improve skill so I don’t think box squats are needed or desirable.[/u] [/quote]

THIS. Look at Weber, who ran Sheiko for a good amount of years and is now a 2,000 + true raw (no wraps/walked out) lifter. If you run Sheiko correctly you will move up in strength but most importantly perfect your competition form. The volume of squats teaches you to always swuat to depth, perfect your walk out/bar position/ ect. Save the cute stuff like chains, ect for when you are at a higher level and have already mastered your form ect.[/quote]

I completely agree.


#14

Walked out vs. not walked out: Is that a thing?


#15

Thanks for the great comments Curls4Girls and StrengthStudent. If I have time for the workouts later this year, I might give Sheiko training a try after I stall out all the way on Madcow Intermediate. Seems like a logical transition, since I’d still be doing mostly the competition lifts and full-body training three times per week.


#16

[quote]DmitryKlokovFan wrote:

[quote]Curls4Girls wrote:
You train @ Idolmakers in Miami, you have Eric Talmant, a world authority on Sheiko, yet you ask for advice on it here?

Eric will punch you in the neck if you talk about using box squats.

Sheiko is meant to be used in competition form, you walk out your squats, you sink them, you pause your benches. ect[/quote]

Yes I know Eric trains there and I’ve spoken, or rather texted him about Sheiko and supposedly he has his own version which he has yet to send to me. Box Squats are included in Sheiko’s book for the squat as SPP so I don’t think Boris would have listed them there if he didn’t feel they were useful.

If you look through Eric’s old EFS log you’ll see he does variations on some of his lifts like chain benches and lockouts and for the record he’s not doing Sheiko anymore.[/quote]

I never post or even visit this site that much…but I’m making an exception for you.

Aright buddy let me end this right now and help you out because I think you have the best intentions but you are missing the mark. So dont take this as a flaming or that Im insulting you.

I train with Eric, as a matter of fact I was the FIRST idolmaker to start training with Eric…Ive been training at idolmaker for 3 years. Ask about Andy. You wanna know how sheiko works? Eric, myself and our entire powerlifting team will help you. I ran it for 3 cycles/ 6 months and put about 200lbs on my total by just doing the main lifts. No crazy accessory, no box squats or w/e…just main lifts with some GPP to improve my conditioning. As a matter of fact Eric has a DVD on Sheiko…buy it!

We are currently experimenting with something new. Want to know more? Come train with us. It is not a modified Sheiko… You misunderstood his text. When we run Sheiko, we run pure sheiko. If you wanna get stronger stop making excuses and train with us, we are more then happy to help you progress in the sport. HECK idolmaker is a Westside certified gym, Im sure Randy will be MORE then happy to help you and train you using the Westside philosophy. He is very knowledgeable and has helped many athletes, bodybuilders, and figure athletes reach their goals. You have many options given the gym you go to

I hear you have a training log. Im gonna take a look at it see whats up with your training.


#17

I’m gonna be honest with you. I have achieved a single ply 500 wilks training ‘sheiko style’ and think it is the single best way for a raw/single ply powerlifter to train. Obviously my opinion so don’t go bananas on me.

Number 1:
Please dont follow the programs as written. I am getting tired of advocating this but sheiko was a coach! The plans you find online are examples of a 1 month plan sheiko wrote for one athlete for one month of their training. As such, dont follow it blindly but arrange it meet your needs.

Number 2:
Assistance is frankly optional. Here is my log adamramzy-traininglog.blogspot.ca/ Note that I rarely do anything but the 3 lifts and still make consistent progress. This is what I think:
BEING STRONG IS ABOUT BEING EFFICIENT
Being a good powerlifter means being able to squat/bench/deadlift something heavy. No one cares what you can box squat or OHP or any other meaningless crap. So just become good at those 3 things by practicing them.


#18

Yes, Curls4Girls I am 42 years old so maybe doing accessory work along with Sheiko is too much for my old bones. Seeing as how I do a physical job, outside, in mostly 90 plus degree weather all day then come home and train, the logical conclusion is I am not 20 any more. I still think that if you use the percentages called for then no other lifting is needed to make progress using Sheiko programs.

I contradict myself though as I have been adding some overload benching in addition to the benching called for using my SlingShot. Even did a max bench the other night on top of the called for benching. Well, I’m just an old fool. I must say Sheiko is providing me with sweet DOMS that must be treated with tons of mobility work and it’s all great!


#19

[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
Yes, Curls4Girls I am 42 years old so maybe doing accessory work along with Sheiko is too much for my old bones. Seeing as how I do a physical job, outside, in mostly 90 plus degree weather all day then come home and train, the logical conclusion is I am not 20 any more. I still think that if you use the percentages called for then no other lifting is needed to make progress using Sheiko programs.

I contradict myself though as I have been adding some overload benching in addition to the benching called for using my SlingShot. Even did a max bench the other night on top of the called for benching. Well, I’m just an old fool. I must say Sheiko is providing me with sweet DOMS that must be treated with tons of mobility work and it’s all great![/quote]

Hey we all respond differently, if it works for you it works. Just keep killing it.


#20

It’s all good.