T Nation

Super Cut Cycle


#1

Height: 5'10 Weight: 212 BF: 10.5% Age: 20 (yes, I know I'm 20, please don't tell me to lay off the AAS and just eat right and train hard til I'm older, this is my 3rd cycle, I know what I'm doing)

-Just looking for a little input on my cut cycle from some more experienced guys
-goals are to get to around 5-7% bf while maintaining all muscle mass and strength
- 1st cycle: test prop/anavar 2nd cycle: test prop/npp/dbol

Test Cyp: 600mg/week
Week 1(Frontload) - 600mg 2x week
Weeks 2-12 - 300mg 2x week

Tren Ace: 350mg/week (I know this is a shorter ester compared to the test, but I chose ace because this is my first time with tren and I want to be able to get it outta my system fast if I have bad sides)
Weeks1-10 - 100mg EOD

Winny(oral): 40mg/day
Weeks 8-12 - 20mg in morning and 20mg in evening(spread 12hrs apart)

Clen and ECA cycled 2 weeks on one and then 2 weeks on the other
Week 1-2(clen): Day1: 20mcg Day 2: 40mcg Day 3: 60mcg Day 4: 80mcg Day 5: 100mcg Day 6-14: 120mcg
Week 3-4(ECA): 20mg ephedrine/200mg caffeine/50mg aspirin 3x per day (spread 6 hours apart)
Week 4-6(clen): Day 1-14: 120mcg
Week 7-8: ECA same as above
Week 9-10: clen same as week 3-4
Week 11-12: ECA same as above

T3: Week 4-9 (taken both to aid lipid and protein synthesis and to elevate t3 levels that are lowered by tren... by a negative feedback loop, the elevated t3 levels in turn reduce the increase in TRH(thyroid releasing hormone) caused by tren which is the direct cause for the increase in prolactin during tren cycle...my thinking is that by adding T3, I both increase fat burning and prevent the increase in prolactin caused by tren which means I won't need caber)
Day 1-2: 12.5mcg
Day 3-6: 25mcg (one dose in the AM)
Day 7-10:
50mcg (split into two doses, 8 hrs in between)
Day 11-13: 75mcg (split into
three doses, 6 hrs in between)
Day 14-17: 100mcg (split into 4 doses, 4 hrs
in between)
Day 18-21: 125mcg (split into 5 doses, 3 hrs in between)
Day 22-25: 100mcg (split into 4 doses, 4 hrs in between)
Day 26-29: 75mcg (split
into three doses, 6 hrs in between)
Day 30-33: 50mcg (split into two doses, 8
hrs in between)
Day 34-37: 25mcg (split into two doses, 10hrs in
between)
Day 38-45: 12.5mcg(one dose in the AM)

PCT:

HCG:
Week 3-12: 200iu 3x week

Nolva:
Week 14-16: Day 1: 80mg Day 2-14: 40mg
Week 17-18: 20mg/day

Clomid: (only take clomid for 2 weeks to reduce the negative side effects on vision)
Week 14: Day 1: 200mg Day 2-7: 100mg
Week 15: 50mg/day

Please let me know what you guys think and if I should make any changes to improve this cycle?


#2

a couple quick things…

i think the androgens look fine for what you want to accomplish here.

however, here are my suggestions…

-don’t cycle between clen and ECA… the purpose of going off clen, is to prevent beta-2 receptor desensitization. ECA still activates beta receptors, however, so cycling on that that isn’t gonna do anything for you. i’d just run ECA the whole time…

-i would be very careful going over 75 mcg of T3. there is some benefit in going up to 100 mcg for short periods (it increases beta-2 receptors in muscle and fat significantly). however, since your main goal is maintain LBM, i would not go to 125 mcg…

-you don’t need 2 SERMs for PCT. you also don’t need crazy doses to start off with… i’d just run Nolva for 20 mg/day for weeks 14-18…

-any AI plans?


#3

Bravo kid bravo.
for a 20 year old you know your shit.

Some things to point out:
I disagree with cyco. I’ve seen IFBB’s switch from clen to ECA. however at 212 lbs you aren’t at that level yet. From what I understand that’s for HIGH end competitions, but it’s not wrong.

I would add some AI. Aromasin will help your pct I think compared to adex, idk if you can risk the androgenic sides.

the T3, I do agree with Cyco, I wouldn’t go above 75 mcg. Further I would be careful going above 80 mcg on the clen. Even Bostin Loyd stops at 80 mcg on clen.

why are you using HCG throughout the cycle instead of just the end.

The cycle looks GREAT on paper, it’s detailed and complex. but keep in mind that your hormones are being played with at a complicated pace. You could develop some mental issues.


#4

-Yes, I forgot to post my ai. I’m taking .25mg adex ED.

-My thinking was the switching between clen and eca would be okay because clen is strictly a beta 2 agonist where as eca is both a beta 2 and 3 agonist but it’s mostly beta 3.

-I agree that t3 at 125 might be a little high so I’ll probably just max out at 100 instead. I don’t wanna risk losing any muscle.

-I read once that taking a higher dosage of the SERMs for just the first day would kickstand the natural production of LH faster by giving a sharper drop in estrogen right away.


#5

[quote]chrisw1213 wrote:

-My thinking was the switching between clen and eca would be okay because clen is strictly a beta 2 agonist where as eca is both a beta 2 and 3 agonist but it’s mostly beta 3.

-I read once that taking a higher dosage of the SERMs for just the first day would kickstand the natural production of LH faster by giving a sharper drop in estrogen right away.[/quote]

well, ephedrine is not a direct agonist like clen is. ephedrine stimulates release of noradrenaline, which acts on the alpha and beta receptors. even though it acts by a different mechanism, there basic premise is the same. beta receptors being stimulated for fat loss…

SERMs don’t lower estrogen… they just block it from acting at certain estrogen receptors.


#6

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

well, ephedrine is not a direct agonist like clen is. ephedrine stimulates release of noradrenaline, which acts on the alpha and beta receptors. even though it acts by a different mechanism, there basic premise is the same. beta receptors being stimulated for fat loss…

SERMs don’t lower estrogen… they just block it from acting at certain estrogen receptors.
[/quote]

I was also debating just taking some ketotifen so then I wouldn’t have to worry about the beta receptors. Then I would just experiment to find out what worked best for me, either clen or ECA, and just stay on that the whole time.


#7

[quote]helpmeimsmall wrote:
Bravo kid bravo.
for a 20 year old you know your shit.

Some things to point out:
I disagree with cyco. I’ve seen IFBB’s switch from clen to ECA. however at 212 lbs you aren’t at that level yet. From what I understand that’s for HIGH end competitions, but it’s not wrong.

I would add some AI. Aromasin will help your pct I think compared to adex, idk if you can risk the androgenic sides.

the T3, I do agree with Cyco, I wouldn’t go above 75 mcg. Further I would be careful going above 80 mcg on the clen. Even Bostin Loyd stops at 80 mcg on clen.

why are you using HCG throughout the cycle instead of just the end.

The cycle looks GREAT on paper, it’s detailed and complex. but keep in mind that your hormones are being played with at a complicated pace. You could develop some mental issues. [/quote]

Thanks! I put a lot of work in on the research end to make sure I understand the biochemical processes taking place. And being a pre-med neuroscience major doesn’t hurt lol.

-yeah, i was planning on adex .25 ED, i just forgot to put it in the orginal post

-like I said in the above post, I’m probably just gonna grab some ketotifen and just choose between either clen or ECA. I’ve done a clen cycle before and maxed at 120mcg, there were sides, but nothing that I couldn’t handle. I’ve read that physiologically, it’s safe to go up to 140mcg but it’s just that most people can’t handle the sides. At 120mcg, my hands were trembling, but that doesn’t bother me, I’m used to the stimulants.

-I do agree on limiting the t3 like I said above. I’ll go up to 75mcg, see how I feel and then maybe push to 100 but not over.

-I was hitting a low dose of HCG for most of my cycle just to keep the LH receptors in my leydig cells active the whole time so they would not desensitize nor atrophy. However after further research, I’m going to hit 500iu 2x per week for weeks 4-6 and then again for week 10-12 for multiple reasons. First, I didn’t want to just wait til the end because the longer they are left without stimulation of LH, the more HCG is needed to efficiently restart the production of test. And I don’t wanna have to be taking a massive 5000iu dose of HCG at the end of my cycle cuz it’ll cause too much aromatization and jack up my estrogen. Also, you will get better gains during your cycle while you are taking HCG because your body will be producing endogenous test on top of the exogenous test you are injecting. But, you are correct in not wanting to take it the whole time because taking it for more than 3 weeks at a time could cause a desensitization of your leydig cells to LH and then you’ll crash after you stop taking it. That’s why I’ll do 3 weeks on, 3 weeks off then my last 3 weeks on.

-and haha the mental issue are nothing I can’t handle lol


#8

[quote]chrisw1213 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

well, ephedrine is not a direct agonist like clen is. ephedrine stimulates release of noradrenaline, which acts on the alpha and beta receptors. even though it acts by a different mechanism, there basic premise is the same. beta receptors being stimulated for fat loss…

SERMs don’t lower estrogen… they just block it from acting at certain estrogen receptors.
[/quote]

I was also debating just taking some ketotifen so then I wouldn’t have to worry about the beta receptors. Then I would just experiment to find out what worked best for me, either clen or ECA, and just stay on that the whole time.[/quote]

not a bad idea. i’m not sure how long keto actually remains effective, though…