I was reading the thread in GAL on the guy who wants to do himself in.
I understand clinical depression and mental illness but I don’t think it would helpful for me to comment on that. However I have questions that relate to myself and my faith on the subject.
The Tanach contains numerous cases of suicide. Some by rogues and some by righteous men or men whose favour The Lord had granted.
As I’m sure you’re aware most the kings of Judah and especially Israel were not righteous men. Some however gained favour due to their ancestry and other means.
Here are some examples of suicide in the bible :
Samson(good) killed himself by destroying a building under which he was standing.
Prince Abimalechson of Gideon (bad ) commanded his armour bearer to kill him to avoid the shame of dying from wounds inflicted by a woman. Overwrought with grief his bearer then killed himself .
Saul(mostly bad but favoured by The Lord) fell on his own sword.
Saul’s sword bearer then killed himself at the grief of his master’s death.
When Ahithophel’s (good) advice was not taken and so he hung himself.
When King Zimri of Israel was murdered by having his house set ablaze. Zimri’s servant saw his master’s house on fire and entered in order to perish in the conflagration.
So what constitutes suicide? If you are dying anyway is it suicide? Was it a sin concocted by the church or Rabbis?
I have no proof, and just me philosophizing. But, sounds like those are idea’s of people’s property going with them, and in some cases maybe those are aspects from ancient past when slaves would be killed so they could follow their masters in death, and certain people were considered property so perhaps it was considered at one time noble for slaves to die with their masters, back when slavery was a good thing you know? lol
There are other examples that I’ve always considered noble sacrifice and not quite the same as suicide, these are examples where a person sacrifices themselves so that others can live, literally… IMO it is life like Christ and should be celebrated a bit more.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Are you asking if suicide automatically sends somebody to hell?
[/quote]
Not really. I’m asking if it constitutes suicide if you’re dying anyway.[/quote]
Are we not all dying…:([/quote]
Most of us are not weeks away and in excruciating pain though. I’d feel very uncomfortable telling someone in the final stages of terminal cancer that they shouldn’t end it quickly.
I think the best way to judge it, is to not judge it.
You don’t know what’s in a person’s heart or mind. You don’t know what get’s a person to that point. I can’t make any claims other than it’s tragic. It’s tragic that they killed themselves. It’s tragic that they felt they had no other way out.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Are you asking if suicide automatically sends somebody to hell?
[/quote]
Not really. I’m asking if it constitutes suicide if you’re dying anyway.[/quote]
Are we not all dying…:([/quote]
Most of us are not weeks away and in excruciating pain though. I’d feel very uncomfortable telling someone in the final stages of terminal cancer that they shouldn’t end it quickly.
[/quote]
What if someone is in excruciating pain, but not dying?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Are you asking if suicide automatically sends somebody to hell?
[/quote]
Not really. I’m asking if it constitutes suicide if you’re dying anyway.[/quote]
Are we not all dying…:([/quote]
Most of us are not weeks away and in excruciating pain though. I’d feel very uncomfortable telling someone in the final stages of terminal cancer that they shouldn’t end it quickly.
[/quote]
What if someone is in excruciating pain, but not dying?[/quote]
Good question. If one is not dying there is always hope. However excruciating pain that can only lead to an agonising death is something I would personally not wish to endure.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Are you asking if suicide automatically sends somebody to hell?
[/quote]
Not really. I’m asking if it constitutes suicide if you’re dying anyway.[/quote]
Are we not all dying…:([/quote]
Most of us are not weeks away and in excruciating pain though. I’d feel very uncomfortable telling someone in the final stages of terminal cancer that they shouldn’t end it quickly.
[/quote]
What if someone is in excruciating pain, but not dying?[/quote]
Good question. If one is not dying there is always hope. However excruciating pain that can only lead to an agonising death is something I would personally not wish to endure.[/quote]
Yes, but daily excruciating pain will drive you mad. Stark raving mad. I am not talking about pain you can take, I am talking about pain you cannot. Day-in, Day-out, extreme pain. Say you have little hope for a cure, then what?
Living in daily pain that’s not going to end can be argued to be worse than living in pain that will end. Now what?
Yes, but daily excruciating pain will drive you mad. Stark raving mad. I am not talking about pain you can take, I am talking about pain you cannot. Day-in, Day-out, extreme pain. Say you have little hope for a cure, then what?
[/quote]
Difficult question. Morphine?
[quote]
Living in daily pain that’s not going to end can be argued to be worse than living in pain that will end. Now what?[/quote]
More morphine? I’m not trying to be facetious. I don’t know the answers to those questions which is why I started this thread.
Yes, but daily excruciating pain will drive you mad. Stark raving mad. I am not talking about pain you can take, I am talking about pain you cannot. Day-in, Day-out, extreme pain. Say you have little hope for a cure, then what?
[/quote]
Difficult question. Morphine?
[quote]
Living in daily pain that’s not going to end can be argued to be worse than living in pain that will end. Now what?[/quote]
More morphine? I’m not trying to be facetious. I don’t know the answers to those questions which is why I started this thread.[/quote]
I know, and I know it’s a difficult question, but it’s an important one to think about.
For instance, what if morphine literally isn’t strong enough? Or are you saying ‘morphine’ more in the spirit of opioid pain management in general?
And if you are, what say you about the crowd of people who are trying to make such treatments unavailable to the people who need them? Opioids are bad and addictive, so even people who cannot get relief any other way shouldn’t take them… I hate do-gooders.
So anyway, constant extreme pain? Pain management? or is suicide an option? Where do you think this falls under?
Yes, but daily excruciating pain will drive you mad. Stark raving mad. I am not talking about pain you can take, I am talking about pain you cannot. Day-in, Day-out, extreme pain. Say you have little hope for a cure, then what?
[/quote]
Difficult question. Morphine?
[quote]
Living in daily pain that’s not going to end can be argued to be worse than living in pain that will end. Now what?[/quote]
More morphine? I’m not trying to be facetious. I don’t know the answers to those questions which is why I started this thread.[/quote]
I know, and I know it’s a difficult question, but it’s an important one to think about.
For instance, what if morphine literally isn’t strong enough? Or are you saying ‘morphine’ more in the spirit of opioid pain management in general?
And if you are, what say you about the crowd of people who are trying to make such treatments unavailable to the people who need them? Opioids are bad and addictive, so even people who cannot get relief any other way shouldn’t take them… I hate do-gooders.
So anyway, constant extreme pain? Pain management? or is suicide an option? Where do you think this falls under?[/quote]
Yes, but daily excruciating pain will drive you mad. Stark raving mad. I am not talking about pain you can take, I am talking about pain you cannot. Day-in, Day-out, extreme pain. Say you have little hope for a cure, then what?
[/quote]
Difficult question. Morphine?
[quote]
Living in daily pain that’s not going to end can be argued to be worse than living in pain that will end. Now what?[/quote]
More morphine? I’m not trying to be facetious. I don’t know the answers to those questions which is why I started this thread.[/quote]
I know, and I know it’s a difficult question, but it’s an important one to think about.
For instance, what if morphine literally isn’t strong enough? Or are you saying ‘morphine’ more in the spirit of opioid pain management in general?
And if you are, what say you about the crowd of people who are trying to make such treatments unavailable to the people who need them? Opioids are bad and addictive, so even people who cannot get relief any other way shouldn’t take them… I hate do-gooders.
So anyway, constant extreme pain? Pain management? or is suicide an option? Where do you think this falls under?[/quote]
I don’t have any problem with people using opiates for pain relief. However I do believe they are overused. I never needed them when I broke my legs/feet/vertebrae/sternum/fingers. I really can’t answer about suicide in non terminal cases as I have never been in that situation. In terminal cases I’d be inclined to accept it however.
Yes, but daily excruciating pain will drive you mad. Stark raving mad. I am not talking about pain you can take, I am talking about pain you cannot. Day-in, Day-out, extreme pain. Say you have little hope for a cure, then what?
[/quote]
Difficult question. Morphine?
I guess that’s what I am asking. Non-terminal cases where people are in extreme pain everyday and will be for the rest of their lives.
Opioids are great for temporary relief for surgeries and things like that, but think about the prospect of living on them for decades. Living pill to pill. Pain or pills, and pain and pills every single solitary day of their lives. When does it become unbearable?
I think the answer to this is the answer to the other as well. I am not claiming to know the answer, I know this is a real problem though. It’s not just a hypothetical.
If a patient is in so much pain, the amount of morphine needed to eliminate the pain will kill them, they still have the right to no pain, and it will not be considered euthanasia if they are killed by the morphine. At least that is the norm here. Euthanasia is a long way off in Norway, but at least pain management for terminal patients is functional.
Regarding sin you have to ask someone who believes it exists.
[quote]espenl wrote:
If a patient is in so much pain, the amount of morphine needed to eliminate the pain will kill them, they still have the right to no pain, and it will not be considered euthanasia if they are killed by the morphine. At least that is the norm here. Euthanasia is a long way off in Norway, but at least pain management for terminal patients is functional.
Regarding sin you have to ask someone who believes it exists.[/quote]
When you reach a certain level of pain you go into shock. I went into shock after sustaining multiple fractures after a fall. I didn’t require any pain relief at all as by the time the paramedics reached me I was only semi-conscious and mumbling.
