[quote]hvywrest wrote:
Also, is arimidex necessary, Ive been getting mixed answers with my research (experienced users and internet)[/quote]
Armidex or some other AI is necessary to have, yes. It is debateable whether or not it is necessary to USE, however. I think it is foolish not to use it.
Whilst I’m very much a newbie and literally in the first week of my cycle; I’d say it’s psychological better to have the AIs and a SERM on hand just in case. I’m running adex@ 0.25mg/EOD right form the start and will adjust as I go if gyno shows up.
Sorry for the late reply…
As for research, There are some great books like the new Anabolics 200X that comes out every year, the Enginering the Perfect Beast ( I think that’s the name) and many others along with forums and online publications.
As for PCT, I would recommend HCG and nolva with adex during the cycle. There are many legit ways to run these in the post cycle, but I would recommend looking at the stickies on the first page to decide what is best for you.
BBB, I agree it was a low dose of test, not much higher than TRT, but since this is his first cycle, I feel that the 250mg/wk would do great with the dbol kickstart, and I know many other bodybuilders, other than I that have had excellent result. I mean this respectfully, BBB, you are a great member to forum.
I agree - i often recommend people start on 250mg test - is is still double physiological levels - and i know many guys(well, a few!) who have grown very nicely from 250mg Test and 200mg deca a week over 6 weeks frontloaded.
Yea for your first cycle it wouldnt be bad to start off with just test. you will see great gains from a 12 week test. I ven never been a fan of deca, but if you do want a stack maybe look into EQ, icrease appetite, vascular and more with lot less sides than deca. But then again i also like throwing d bol in the first four weeks at 30 mg 6 days a week. But if you do decide to get the deca get you some HCG it will be a dick saver.
[quote]Jamesb170 wrote:
Yea for your first cycle it wouldnt be bad to start off with just test. you will see great gains from a 12 week test. I ven never been a fan of deca, but if you do want a stack maybe look into EQ, icrease appetite, vascular and more with lot less sides than deca. But then again i also like throwing d bol in the first four weeks at 30 mg 6 days a week. But if you do decide to get the deca get you some HCG it will be a dick saver. [/quote]
Dbol 6 days per week? Why?
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Jamesb170 wrote:
Yea for your first cycle it wouldnt be bad to start off with just test. you will see great gains from a 12 week test. I ven never been a fan of deca, but if you do want a stack maybe look into EQ, icrease appetite, vascular and more with lot less sides than deca. But then again i also like throwing d bol in the first four weeks at 30 mg 6 days a week. But if you do decide to get the deca get you some HCG it will be a dick saver.
Dbol 6 days per week? Why?[/quote]
x2 and I don’t think HCG is going to be the cure for deca problems imo…
DG
I agree with Jamesb170 about being an advocate of EQ. As he stated less sides and harder gains, and appetite increases. I like to run the same, Test, EQ, and a dbol kickstart. But I still like the Test/dbol stack for a beginner.
I like to run dbol 7 days a week at 30mg a day for the first 3-4 weeks. I have heard the 6 days a week cycle, I would like to know the idea behind this use as well. Thanks Jamesb170.
HCG will be no more necessary with the addition of deca - test for 12 weeks is just as suppressive in the end.
HCG may help with a lowered libido whilst using Nandrolone, but not because it does anything different to the test that should be included in the cycle.
The prolactin issue that often gives a vastly reduced libido (IME) wont be helped by HCG either… caber or more commonly a lower dose of deca will.
Not that i am saying don’t use it (HCG), you should. Just that it should also be used for test cycles of a longer fashion, and not because deca has some property that requires it more.
If it was simply the fact that deca doesnt convert to DHT that made it no good for libido - then this would be cured by even the smallest amount of test and in SOME cases, it is not. i digress…
I also have to say that i disagree with the recommendation of Equipoise in the same breath as deca - they are vastly different and it is barely anabolic at all in practice (not saying it has no effect - but would be like adding Winny or Anavar to a Test cycle).
Also saying Eq “gives x and y effect, with a lot less sides than deca” is misleading.
Apart from the fact that deca is one of the mildest (side effect wise) AAS commonly used today (not mentioning the massive potential for muscle building on this drug), the only side effect you could possibly be referring to is the suppression factor - which is no more suppressive over a 12 week period than test (i am aware it is over a 1 week period however, but who runs AAS for 1 week??).
I know that there are additional issues - possible prolactin induced libido problems and ester length coupled with the power of suppression it has - but in all honesty, Test will shut you down just as hard eventually (over 4 weeks or so) and cycle after cycle it will become harder to recover inbetween.
I am just making a point - i AM NOT trying to convince anyone to use Deca - especially the OP. i am just trying to cease the unnatural and unwarranted fear of what i believe to be a fantastic AAS.
I also think for a first cycle that 12 weeks on should be avoided.
My first few (and i mean a good few) cycles were 6-8 weeks in length in total, i have ran 12 and longer cycles but i will be again reverting to 6-8on and 6off (B+C).
For a newb tho, it is especially important to keep cycles simple with one compound preferably, and short - an enanth, deca, cyp or undec ester can all be used perfectly well for 6 weeks at a time with a full frontload.
Even down to 4 weeks mr. bill roberts told me, and i believe him and will be structuring a blitz style cycle based on that soon 
thats what i think!
(James - i bet you could feel picked on by me now! It wasnt my intention, i simply dont agree with a couple of your recommendations - each to his own though and i know that what i like in AAS isnt always what is best for another ;D)
Brook
[quote]jukebox wrote:
I agree with Jamesb170 about being an advocate of EQ. As he stated less sides and harder gains, and appetite increases. I like to run the same, Test, EQ, and a dbol kickstart. But I still like the Test/dbol stack for a beginner.
I like to run dbol 7 days a week at 30mg a day for the first 3-4 weeks. I have heard the 6 days a week cycle, I would like to know the idea behind this use as well. Thanks Jamesb170.[/quote]
Less sides than what? Deca? why is it even compared to this drug? Dan Duchaine?
I am agreeing to disagree of course, so as not to clutter the thread but tell me that - why the need to compare these different drugs? Where is the similarity?
Brook, I was refering to the loss of libido and the longer suppression I have experienced with deca. In my own experience, I have had the same gains from a test/EQ cycle as I have from a test/deca cycle, but have had a very hard time with the PCT after the deca.
I know that I am a minority to this issue, maybe just my different reactions to these drugs. I don’t knock deca, just prefer EQ for my own use. I have also read some articles in MD where Dave Palumbo recommends EQ over deca.
After talking it over with experienced users (competitive bodybuilders, pro fighters, and powerlifters) who I know, have given me some advice. I have come up with this cycle in mind:
Test eth:10 weeks 500 mg 2xweek
Anadrol(more available for me and much cheaper than d-bol):4 weeks 50mg pre workout
PCT: Nolva and possibly HCG if there is shrinkage in the testes, and A-dex if I see signs of gyno.
I was told that my dosages in my proposed cycle are relatively low and there is no need for more than 1 or 2 drugs for PCT
[quote]hvywrest wrote:
Test eth:10 weeks 500 mg 2xweek
[/quote]
I hope that is 250 mg 2x week.
[quote]hvywrest wrote:
After talking it over with experienced users (competitive bodybuilders, pro fighters, and powerlifters) who I know, have given me some advice. I have come up with this cycle in mind:
Test eth:10 weeks 500 mg 2xweek
Anadrol(more available for me and much cheaper than d-bol):4 weeks 50mg pre workout
PCT: Nolva and possibly HCG if there is shrinkage in the testes, and A-dex if I see signs of gyno.
I was told that my dosages in my proposed cycle are relatively low and there is no need for more than 1 or 2 drugs for PCT[/quote]
You are still confused about PCT.
Arimidex should be used during the cycle and its only inclusion in PCT is while you are tapering off of it.
If you plan to use HCG to combat testicle shrinkage you should use it during the cycle, not just after the cycle.
Whotookmyname: yes u r correct it is 250mg 2X week.
I was told that I do not need a-dex unless gyno starts to show. And that I am not taking a high enough dosage for this to occur.
[quote]hvywrest wrote:
Whotookmyname: yes u r correct it is 250mg 2X week.
I was told that I do not need a-dex unless gyno starts to show. And that I am not taking a high enough dosage for this to occur.[/quote]
It is your choice whether to use it or not. But it is not to be included in PCT (other than the tapering off of it part).
If this is your first cycle you, frankly, have no idea how much AAS it will take to induce gyno.
[quote]hvywrest wrote:
Whotookmyname: yes u r correct it is 250mg 2X week.
I was told that I do not need a-dex unless gyno starts to show. And that I am not taking a high enough dosage for this to occur.[/quote]
500 mg is usually a reasonable dose of T. But some people - not me - are just more predisposed to gyno than others. For sure keep it handy in case you have even the slightest symptoms going on w/ the nips, or if you get too bloated. Assuming no problems occur, size gains tend to be a little better without an AI.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Brook wrote:
HCG will be no more necessary with the addition of deca - test for 12 weeks is just as suppressive in the end.
HCG may help with a lowered libido whilst using Nandrolone, but not because it does anything different to the test that should be included in the cycle.
Brook
Brook, how many times have you run deca? I ask because you seem to find it no more suppressive than testosterone, which is fine of course but completely different to my own experiences.
I can easily run a gram per week of test, with no loss of testicle size, and minimal impact on libido (either positive or negative - it’s DHT that gets my libido going). However, use 500mg of test and say 300mg of deca, and the testes begin to shrink and the libido tanks.
I for one would always recommend the addition of HCG in a long deca cycle. Actually I would recommend that deca not be used, but that’s besides the point
BBB[/quote]
It isnt that i find deca more suppressive or no more - its that i am AS suppressed by test. if that makes sense, i know it is essentially the same thing but the view is different.
Test reduces my testes a ton for example… I am actually glad you said that though as i know a kid who is using some proven gear but is concerned that it is bunk after gaining some, but having no hair loss, libido increase or testicular atrophy!
As we know - it is often very different from one guy to the next - and it seems true of us both with test.
However, how come you can use test at 1000mg a week with no loss of testicular size yet when you needed to come off late last year - you felt a severe crash?
You know that teste size is lost due to no use of the ‘organ’ of course - and test, deca or anything… long term use (over 8 weeks) will result in 100% suppression and the testes will shrink, no?
If not how do you account for no atrophy of your nads? I am pretty sure you arent suggesting you are not suppressed of course, but is it that you think it is a lesser suppression allowing a small secretion of test from the leydigs? Out of genuine interest.
My point (in the post i made) ISNT that deca has no more suppression - it is that suppression can only be 100% at its worst, and test causes 100% suppression, albeit not as fast as nandrolone (i remember you telling me that nandrolone has other suppressive factors actually, IIRC it was the progestin activity…? Please remind me, but either way it is no more suppressive than 100% surely).
But both taken over a 12 week period your HPTA will be AS suppressed with either.
It is also that i find many believe they are experiencing a further or deeper suppression when deca reduces their sex drive, i assume because many think that sex drive reduction is primarily indicative of HPTA function - except i believe this to be prolactin induced… To which HCG will be of no use except to increase testosterone and then DHT (as you hit on and i agree with totally! love DHT!)
I was also not trying to say that deca is not in need of a HCG run throughout - the point was that it doesnt need HCG just because deca is involved, it should be used when running test for a 12 week cycle also - which is a struggle to recover from for most mortals too.
I have run deca… erm… approximately 6 times? 7? maybe 5. Something like that anyway. Mostly 6 week cycles, then a couple 8 week ones, and a couple 10 week ones. I dont remember fully simply as it has been over a number of years and many before i took my ability seriously and wasnt willing to commit fully in effort or dedication.
I used to recover with a SERM PCT. I struggled with recovery after not taking enough time off however, but this is common to all AAS IMO.
I do know that i have a good ‘tolerance’ to progesterone and progestins, as drol and deca with test never caused issue with my gyno etc.
I also suffer from prolactin libido loss very easily - it is my belief at least…
We all have the slightest tolerance of each of the different hormones affected by a steroid, and it effects our occurance of sides and ability to use the drug to max effectiveness greatly.
For example one guy here begun lactating from a moderate dose of deca and test i believe it was, where i have never had the issue.
Some get acne from eq, some get hunger.
You know how it works - i am honestly surprised by your apparent tolerance of test!
Shit, all guys i have ever met who are on full time have testicular atrophy without HCG. Still, it just goes to show we are all very different, although we base our knowledge on the similarities there are and always will be.
I got first show of gyno at 250mg pharm sust a week by week 2.