T Nation

SubQ: An Added Benefit and a Question

I’ve been reading through “Testosterone, A Man’s Guide”

and in it the author makes references to frequent, subq injections and the stated benefits according to one study (though the author admits he does IM and has not tried subq). Apparently, in addition to steadier T levels, less of the T converts to E2 when doing subq. The study quoted also references taking the subq in the abdomen fat. I tried that this morning and it stung a little.

Have you guys found reduced E2 levels on subq? How about which injection sites?

I bounce b/t subq and IM and will go with subq exclusively if it means I can cut back on adex dosage and still get optimal levels of E2.

I don’t have enough bloodwork to support my findings, but after the initial “break in” period after switching to SQ, I like it much better. I’ve been on SQ for over a year now. I will say this - my last couple of labs did reveal low E2, like in the single digits and low teens, and reducing my adex dosage brought it back up into the 20s. I feel better - consistent morning wood, etc. I still may need to adjust it back up some, but I’ll just have to see how I feel after some time.

Thanks. Where do you usually inject?

I switched to subcutaneous administration for 3 weeks into my abdomen after being on IM for 4 months. I had the experience of stopping testosterone injections, weight loss, and many low testosterone/high estrogen symptoms despite being on an AI. I will say however that I did not have definitive proof of poor absorption or conversion to E2.

There does seem to be a lot of research papers making significant mention of the high concentrations of aromatase enzymes in the abdominal fat of men. Whether they mean the subcutaeous fat or the fat in the greater/lesser omentum beneath the abdominal muscles they don’t specify. It’s worth considering alternate sites to this favorite location and consider that it’s possible to find enough subcu tissue almost anywhere on your body even if you’re lean. In exceptionally lean areas you may want to gentle gather some of the fat under the skin or use a 45 degree technique.

c27, are you saying that when you switched to subq everything went awry, or that those symptoms hit you before you switched to subq?

From what I could tell it was from the change in administration because my change only occurred during subcutaneous injections. I have no proof though and need to give it another go in about 6 months. I felt too rotten to wait until my next labs were due so I went back to the IM.

If and when I retry it I’ll use sites other than the abdomen. I like IM just fine though. Less pain than subcutaneous I found.

Thanks. Much appreciated. Since IM has been working for me, maybe I’m overthinking things.

On a sidenote I’m on HGH as well, as part of my anti-aging regimen. Gotta enough needles in my belly with HcG adn HGH. . . .

I inject my hcg in the “love handles” on my sides. My T goes in the belly, a couple inches away from the belly button on either side - the whole “front” area if you will.

I did notice a slight “drop off” when I switched to SQ from IM in the way I felt. It may take some time for levels to normalize somehow. It took around 3 weeks best I remember.

c27, where are you injecting im and what size needle if you don’t mind.my wife has been giving mine in my glutes currently using a 22g by 1 needle. sometimes it’s ok but sometimes it’s a pain in the ass. thanks

[quote] gunner wrote:
c27, where are you injecting im and what size needle if you don’t mind.my wife has been giving mine in my glutes currently using a 22g by 1 needle. sometimes it’s ok but sometimes it’s a pain in the ass. thanks[/quote]

I’m using the vastus lateralis midway between the patella and the hip. I’m using 25g x 1" and usually just put a little over half the needle in. I don’t have much for subcutaneous tissue there.

Did a nurse instruct you or your wife about how to landmark and do the injection? Are you using to dorsogluteal or ventrogluteal site? AS far as I know the ventrogluteal site is safer and avoids the risk of hitting nerves.

[quote]knobby22 wrote:
Thanks. Much appreciated. Since IM has been working for me, maybe I’m overthinking things.

On a sidenote I’m on HGH as well, as part of my anti-aging regimen. Gotta enough needles in my belly with HcG adn HGH. . . . [/quote]

just a reminder that even in “belly” or im injections there is a need to rotate injection sites so not to develop corky tough scar tissue.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/how_the_fck_do_you_pin_ed?id=5800541&pageNo=1

This is just subjective reporting only and I have no lab work to back it up but when I’ve tried subQ, I don’t feel “like TRT is working”. When I go back to IM, I feel “normal for TRT replacement”.

There has been some discussion here that some guys don’t respond well to subQ. I am curious if this has to do with the amount of body fat a guy has. Dr. Crisler is ripped compared to me. I have a fat belly. Working on losing it. But when I inject into it, the T just doesn’t seem to have an effect and I don’t feel good.

[quote]XLR8MyLife wrote:
This is just subjective reporting only and I have no lab work to back it up but when I’ve tried subQ, I don’t feel “like TRT is working”. When I go back to IM, I feel “normal for TRT replacement”.

There has been some discussion here that some guys don’t respond well to subQ. I am curious if this has to do with the amount of body fat a guy has. Dr. Crisler is ripped compared to me. I have a fat belly. Working on losing it. But when I inject into it, the T just doesn’t seem to have an effect and I don’t feel good.[/quote]

subcutaneous injections have a slower absorption rate which helps keep estradiol levels where they should be. you said you haven’t done blood lab work, so why not take advantage of lef.org spring sale and find out for certain.

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLC100012/Male-Basic-Hormone-Panel-Blood-Test.html

otherwise stick with what works for you. i have done subcutaneous injections for over a year and blood lab work shows everything is as it should be.

what kind of syringe did you use for your sub q and what syringe do you use for im injections?

[quote]XLR8MyLife wrote:
This is just subjective reporting only and I have no lab work to back it up but when I’ve tried subQ, I don’t feel “like TRT is working”. When I go back to IM, I feel “normal for TRT replacement”.

There has been some discussion here that some guys don’t respond well to subQ. I am curious if this has to do with the amount of body fat a guy has. Dr. Crisler is ripped compared to me. I have a fat belly. Working on losing it. But when I inject into it, the T just doesn’t seem to have an effect and I don’t feel good.[/quote]

I feel the same way about SC injections. It’s like I quit TRT. I think the amount of bodyfat has an impact on trt in general but especially SC injections in the abdomen. I would also like to see research on the differences in genetic predisposition to aromatizing T -> E2

Im not fat but compared to Dr.Crisler I am. The dude looks like he lives in SoCal.

[quote]conservativedog wrote:

[quote]XLR8MyLife wrote:
This is just subjective reporting only and I have no lab work to back it up but when I’ve tried subQ, I don’t feel “like TRT is working”. When I go back to IM, I feel “normal for TRT replacement”.

There has been some discussion here that some guys don’t respond well to subQ. I am curious if this has to do with the amount of body fat a guy has. Dr. Crisler is ripped compared to me. I have a fat belly. Working on losing it. But when I inject into it, the T just doesn’t seem to have an effect and I don’t feel good.[/quote]

subcutaneous injections have a slower absorption rate which helps keep estradiol levels where they should be. you said you haven’t done blood lab work, so why not take advantage of lef.org spring sale and find out for certain.

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLC100012/Male-Basic-Hormone-Panel-Blood-Test.html

otherwise stick with what works for you. i have done subcutaneous injections for over a year and blood lab work shows everything is as it should be.

what kind of syringe did you use for your sub q and what syringe do you use for im injections?
[/quote]

I use 3 ml syringe with a 1.5" 21 gauge needle to inject IM. I inject into my glutes or quads.

I use 1 ml insulin syringe with a 1/2" 29 gauge needle to inject subQ. I have injected subQ into my waistline, love handles, and deltoids.

[quote]XLR8MyLife wrote:
I use 3 ml syringe with a 1.5" 21 gauge needle to inject IM. I inject into my glutes or quads.

I use 1 ml insulin syringe with a 1/2" 29 gauge needle to inject subQ. I have injected subQ into my waistline, love handles, and deltoids.
[/quote]

you most likely will never get the same surge feeling from T injections that you initially had when first injecting. just mentioning to everyone that do not realize it is because your body is still producing natural T and the added injection can cause an energizing reaction. i often felt a surge within 10-15 minutes of im T injections.

the sub-q injections have a much lower absorption rate and the only way to know for certain that sub-q is doing it’s job is with blood lab work.

having said that let me point out that you would do yourself a favor to use the 23G or 25G syringes. i had used 23G 1 1/2 inch needles for glute/butt injections and 25G 1/2 inch syringe on quads/delts/tricep sites.

difference between 21G and 23G is significant and the smaller/less holes you’re punching in muscle the better you will stave off scar tissue buildup.

so put away the harpoon and get with the program! and stay away from blasting caps.

Thanks for the advice ConservativeDog. I have only used what the pharmacy is dispensing for IM. I will have to request some 23 or 25 gauge needles or go shopping for some.

I’ve never felt a surge. What I mean by my feelings on IM vs. subQ happens during the week. On IM, I feel upbeat, energetic, happy, strong, motivated, with strong libido. When I tried subQ, I felt slow, a little more “down”, not motivated to go to the gym, not strong, not motivated to stick to a healthy diet, and not very horny.

Sorry I don’t get the reference to “blasting caps”. I don’t know what that means.

Thanks again for the advice. IM will be even better with those smaller gauge needles.

[quote]XLR8MyLife wrote:
Thanks for the advice ConservativeDog. I have only used what the pharmacy is dispensing for IM. I will have to request some 23 or 25 gauge needles or go shopping for some.

[/quote]

walmart should have them. you might have to call several different ones because they appear not to carry them at all stores. the walmarts around me have a new policy of making you buy a box/hundred which should be just under $14.

[quote]knobby22 wrote:
Thanks. Where do you usually inject? [/quote]

Always at home and more specifically the bathroom next to the sink.

Where do you usually inject? Post video.