I've been doing the IM injections for almost 2 months and now that my T levels have reached where I want them to be I want to see if Sub Q works as well for me.
I've read all the stickies and searched for "Sub Q Injection" "Sub Injection" etc. I've seen where people mention doing the injection in the thigh or shoulder, but I haven't seen anything about doing it in the belly fat.
My question is: Any reason not do injection into belly fat?
Re: Sub Q/C Injections you just need to read the Injection Protocol stickie at the top of the forum. It just doesn't explain the best options of where to do the injection - the only think I see mentioned is the outer thigh muscle. My problem is I have 0 fat on my thighs but a good 1 or 2 inches on my waist.
I do my shots in belly fat, haven't had an issue at all. I have read concerns about there being more aromatase enzymes because of the higher fat content of that area, but enzymes are in the blood, not the tissue, so I don't see why it would be a concern. Not to mention it hasn't had an effect on my E2 levels anyway.
Thanks. I'm just wondering, if I inject into my thigh with an insulin syringe is it NOT an IM injection? If I can't pinch .5" in that area and using a .5" syringe aren't I going into the muscle?
The reason I'm asking these questions is that I've been doing the 1" injection into my glutes, but finding it difficult to turn my body in position and self-inject without stirring the needle around too much. I'm looking for a more simple method that doesn't require that level of dexterity.
If you want to inject in the thigh try pinching the fat near the top of your rectus femoris muscle. I can't find the post, but I believe it was KSman that was saying that almost everyone has a fad pad there. I don't have a lot of fat over my vastus lateralis either but I have no problem in the upper center of the quads.
Doing what NeelyDan does is probably the easiest place to inject yourself SC. Another poster named TopSirloin was injecting in the belly as well because he was having some reactions in the thigh.
I do my HCG in the belly and the T in the thigh. I find that there are less nerve endings in the thigh and don't even feel the shot unless I hit a blood vessel. If I feel twinge anywhere, belly or leg, I re-stick in another spot close to the original location.
Keep in mind that this is what works for me and I don't have near the experience that other contributing members have. Good Luck.
In the belly, not to close to the umbilicus and below umbilicus there seems to be more veins to hit.
If you cannot tell the difference between fat and muscle on your quads, I can't help. If some IM injection were to leak out into SC, that would not be a problem.
Clinical research done in Canada demonstrated that SC injections worked well. This was for weekly injections. Peaks were lower and troughs were less deep, patients felt better. If SC works for you, then you can spare yourself decades of needle damage to your muscles.
Note that when T injections started in the 1940's, this was done by doctors in their offices every 2 or 4 weeks. The volume injected was large. Deep injection into large muscles was thought to be the best delivery. Also remember that when this practice started, there were no disposable needles, so self injection was not considered an option. Injections were every 2 or 4 weeks because office injections more often than that were considered impracticable. The product literature is still contaminated with those archaic factors.
Very interesting... Have you been able to compare data from your patients that have tried IM and SC? Could you give a ballpark guess about the percentage of increase between sc and IM? Would this be more of an issue with those of us who have an estrogen dominant hormone profile or those of that carry a bit more fat?
We know from experience that a 15-20% T-cream creates a lot less E2 than 1% T gels. The explanation has been that the high concentration T cream is applied to small areas of skin compared to 1% T-gels. And that the T-->E2 capacity of the smaller amount of skin is rate limited. Extending that to the small amount of fat cells exposed to the T injection, one can argue that the small amount of fat involved cannot create a lot of E2. Note as well that testosterone esters cannot directly T-->E2. Only T can do that. As T esters are absorbed with the carrier oil, the molecules of the T ester are not remaining in one spot, but are in circulation and are been converted to T elsewhere/everywhere. So the concept that all of the injected T ester been locally available as testosterone base is simply wrong. Yes, some dose converts locally.
I did not have any change to E2 when switching from IM to SC. And even if that was to occur to some degree, ones monitoring of E2 and management with anastrozole would deal with things as a matter of course
Also, E2 promotes general fat gain. I have never seen anyone suggest that get more fat at their SC injection sites.
I do not think that this is an issue and this otherwise is a distraction for those who are trying to learn the basics and figure out their own situation and options.
t-fit, I'm prob like you in that my thighs just don't have a lot of fat. You are correct in your assumption that a .5" directly into your thigh would most likely be IM. Especially if your skinny. I have done IM and subQ with no changes to speak of in E levels. I pinch some skin on my upper thigh and inject into the pinch...hope that makes sense.
KSMan, Thanks for the response. From the start I memorized the stickies so I'm familiar with the reference to the CA study and the Peak/Valley wave of T.
I've been doing the 2 x week IM shots for about 2 months and just not as flexible as I need to be in order to inject without "stirring" the needle within the muscle - you know holding it steady.
My question regarding using the insulin syringes is if the needles is .5" long and I inject at 90* directly into my thigh I'm thinking this is an IM injection. And if not, let say its going into fat - does it matter? I mean, I understand the concept of Sub Q v IM (steadier rate,etc) but I've been OK w/the IM injections - so if I use the insulin syringe and inject this way I'm expecting my labs to be the same. Does this sound right?
I'm just going for what is easier for me to do and give me the right results.
Thanks. While I'm far from skinny I carry weight in my abdomen. My arms, shoulders and thighs are muscular and well defined. I think I'm going to pin in my thighs with the insulin syringe and see what my blood work says in 2 weeks.
While injecting, one can hold the end of the barrel and anchor it to the skin while depressing the plunger. This stops the needle from moving and cutting tissue.
Lab results depend on frequency, dose and timing. With frequent injections [EOD], IM vs SC will not really affect labs and the benefit is choice of what is more comfortable and less damaging. With weekly injections, SC will provided smoother levels than IM. Smoother levels means lower peaks, which will reduce E2 response and may avoid some hematocrit problems.
If you inject from the side into skin/fat pinched up, IM hits are impossible. There should not be any doubt about there the injection goes.
Nope...that's the way I do it. I have done it in belly with no issues either. My advice is to try it IM get labs, then try it subq get labs and see what works for you. I can tell you from experience that subq did not affect my levels in a negative way whatsoever. Like KSman mentions, the instructions are outdated and will never be changed.