T Nation

Styles/Techniques for LE


#1

I know there are a few cops/military guys in this forum and I’d like to I’d like to get a discussion going about what has worked for you and what hasn’t. Training MA is one thing, but it changes entirely when you’re fully geared up and outside of the gym. Most of the guys I work with don’t train MA and choose to get as big and strong as possible and don’t take the time to learn a few techniques.


#2

[quote]Watchdog wrote:
I know there are a few cops/military guys in this forum and I’d like to I’d like to get a discussion going about what has worked for you and what hasn’t. Training MA is one thing, but it changes entirely when you’re fully geared up and outside of the gym. "

I am in between flights now and don’t have time to response correctly, but, can you narrow your focus? What works in a CQB armed entry? What works using verbal commands? What works in engaging an active shooter? What works in using physical techniques in controlling a passive/aggressive drunk? What works in controlling a individual on meth or PCP? What works in killing terrorists? ect.

BTW: IMHO you need to start training with professionals, only getting "big and strong and not “taking the time” to learn anything new is just plain stupid. Nothing will get you killed quicker than arrogance.


#3

[quote]idaho wrote:
Watchdog wrote:
I know there are a few cops/military guys in this forum and I’d like to I’d like to get a discussion going about what has worked for you and what hasn’t. Training MA is one thing, but it changes entirely when you’re fully geared up and outside of the gym. "

I am in between flights now and don’t have time to response correctly, but, can you narrow your focus? What works in a CQB armed entry? What works using verbal commands? What works in engaging an active shooter? What works in using physical techniques in controlling a passive/aggressive drunk? What works in controlling a individual on meth or PCP? What works in killing terrorists? ect.

BTW: IMHO you need to start training with professionals, only getting "big and strong and not “taking the time” to learn anything new is just plain stupid. Nothing will get you killed quicker than arrogance. [/quote]

I was looking for martial arts techniques/styles for the patrol officer using physical control for an aggressive/assaultive subject. My service puts together a decent active shooter training package, but the defensive tactics program isn’t adequate and it’s something that I think should be trained a few times a week, not annually.

When I said the guys I work with, I meant my co-workers. I agree it’s arrogant and it seems like avoiding the issue while pretending to address it. I’ve dabbled in boxing, MT, and BJJ and found some of it to be useful on the road. I am by no means skilled in any of these disciplines, but I only have so much time to devote to training and I want to focus on the most effective techniques and styles for the intended application.


#4

This is really entirely dependent upon the type and quality of training available in your area and your own personal factors (scheduling, expense, enjoyment) which will affect your ability/inclination to participate.

IMO no traditional or sport martial art is entirely suited to your application, so whatever you train will end up being a compromise of sorts. Pure striking martial arts have no emphasis on bringing a subject under control. Judo is great for stand up grappling, locks, controls etc but prohibits striking. MMA is going to tend to emphasize sporting applications. None of them will take into consideration your equipment, environmental considerations, intermediate/improvised weapons etc. with the possible exception of a good RMA school, and those are notoriously difficult to find.

It’s really more a question of the best school/instructor than the best style. I suggest you check around in your area. Things to consider: does your BS-O-Meter go off while you’re talking/training with the teacher/students, is the gym LE friendly, does the class/fee schedule and location work for you and/or is it somewhere you would want to train as far as the culture and training environment are concerned.

A little research and you may find that your decision is easier than you think.


#5

[quote]batman730 wrote:
This is really entirely dependent upon the type and quality of training available in your area and your own personal factors (scheduling, expense, enjoyment) which will affect your ability/inclination to participate.

IMO no traditional or sport martial art is entirely suited to your application, so whatever you train will end up being a compromise of sorts. Pure striking martial arts have no emphasis on bringing a subject under control. Judo is great for stand up grappling, locks, controls etc but prohibits striking. MMA is going to tend to emphasize sporting applications. None of them will take into consideration your equipment, environmental considerations, intermediate/improvised weapons etc. with the possible exception of a good RMA school, and those are notoriously difficult to find.

It’s really more a question of the best school/instructor than the best style. I suggest you check around in your area. Things to consider: does your BS-O-Meter go off while you’re talking/training with the teacher/students, is the gym LE friendly, does the class/fee schedule and location work for you and/or is it somewhere you would want to train as far as the culture and training environment are concerned.

A little research and you may find that your decision is easier than you think.[/quote]

What I am looking for in this thread is for those who work in the field to share their experiences with MA and their job. Surprisingly, most police officers I know don’t do any type of MA and it’s hard to get opinions on what is effective and what isn’t. Most guys who are concerned about this just get bigger thinking it will resolve most issues.

I’ve ruled out a few gyms in my area due to some of the associations they have with persons of questionable character. There is an RMA gym near me that teaches escrima, BJJ, submission wrestling, some boxing, kickboxing, etc. As mentioned above, I’ve dabbled in most of these and I’ve implemented a few of the techniques with varying degrees of success.

For example, I’ve found BJJ really taught me how to control someone on the ground. No shit, right? Once you flatten their hips they become much easier to control. Many people don’t know this. I see people grabbing arms and legs only to see the guy get back on his knees and stand up.

Wrestling seems like it would be great but it requires you to have a lot of bodily contact with the other person who may be filthy or have contagious diseases.

Boxing is good for avoiding strikes and knowing when someone is about to sucker punch you. MT teaches the clinch which is useful for obvious reasons.

This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to share.


#6

first martial art /combat instructor i had said ;if you want to learn martial arts go to martial arts school; if you want to learn to fight go to martial arts school for a year then get a job in a busy bar/nightclub you will learn
also found that alot[not all] of people in martial arts,military ,law enforcement are always looking for new techniques and willing to show, practice,and learn makes it easy to pick and choose what applies to your use of force rules
even bruce lee had sessions in the backyard


#7

[quote]cavemansam wrote:
first martial art /combat instructor i had said ;if you want to learn martial arts go to martial arts school; if you want to learn to fight go to martial arts school for a year then get a job in a busy bar/nightclub you will learn
also found that alot[not all] of people in martial arts,military ,law enforcement are always looking for new techniques and willing to show, practice,and learn makes it easy to pick and choose what applies to your use of force rules
even bruce lee had sessions in the backyard[/quote]

A few of us at work have tried to get something like that going, but it never materializes. I’m sure you could get a decent group when there are over 300 cops, but the reality is most guys don’t want to put the time in. I think a lot of it has to do with ego.


#8

quality of opponent
if you are lucky you wont face a pro or well trained opponent{but can happen} but any training can improve your odds
i once had to fight an escaped inmate[ from the facility i worked at] under a double wide house trailer after chaseing and playing hide an seek with him for about an hour they dont teach that in a dojo
you can train in the backyard,in the garage if you have a work gym that would work
different training partners,you only need one at a time
trained with a nutty ass marine in a bar parking lot couple times a month when he was in town learned alot about " dirty " fighting
combat Veterans or long term military i found to be a great source of knowledge
they tend to learn and use what works
you might be surprised to see how many people are out there who used to fight alot or train
the martial art schools i attended usually broke down into
those who are there to say they go to martial arts school
those who do it for fun
those who want to fight


#9

I have never personally taken a martial arts class that was streamlined for the purposes of law enforcement. I have certainly applied things that I have learned from different disciplines, but I have yet to take a true “martial art” that covered all (or at least most) of the bases I needed for LE.

I did take a military combatives class from a Special Forces veteran. He had designed the combatives class for his team at the instruction of his team sergeant. It was a very streamlined course, and it was designed with a few things in mind:

  1. It had to consist of gross motor skills only.
  2. The techniques had to be applicable to both armed an unarmed opponents (commonality of technique).
  3. The operators had to be able to perform it in full kit.
  4. It had to be adjustable in response (i.e; non-lethal all the way up to lethal).
  5. An operator had to be able to perform it at least partially successfully under SERE conditions. (starved, injured, etc)

As I said, that was a very streamlined course. Most of it drew on a combination of techniques from Shurite Kempo and the old Marine Corps LINE combatives program.

I would definitely teach that particular program to patrol officers. Other than that, I can’t name a particular art.


#10

[quote]Watchdog wrote:

I’ve ruled out a few gyms in my area due to some of the associations they have with persons of questionable character. There is an RMA gym near me that teaches escrima, BJJ, submission wrestling, some boxing, kickboxing, etc. As mentioned above, I’ve dabbled in most of these and I’ve implemented a few of the techniques with varying degrees of success.
[/quote]

Offering a mix of arts does not an RMA make. In order for something to truly be an RMA it must include:
-Fear management/stress inoculation/Mental and Emotional toughness training
-Verbal, postural, and psychological self defense skills/confrontation management skills
-legal and moral realities and considerations in combat
-complete full body striking skills and striking defense skills
-complete multi-scenario grappling/contact and control skills and anti-grappling skills
-conventional and improvised weapon deployment and defense skills
-multiple opponent defensive strategies
-situational awareness training and defenses against ambush attacks
-environmental awareness and tactical considerations
-force multipliers/“dirty fighting” tactics
-situational defensive tactics (sitting in a car, laying in bed, needing to defend someone, etc…)
-fighting fitness training

IME lots of systems that I see advertising themselves as RMA’s are in reality just SMA’s (Sport Martial Arts that pretend that sporting contexts are the same as real world self defense contexts) or Combatives systems (relatively simplistic systems that are designed to develop a bare minimum of combative skill necessary to send soldiers off to war and not be total liabilities to the rest of the group should things go incredibly wrong and they wind up having to engage in face to face combat with enemy soldiers). In contrast true RMA’s fully acknowledge (and even relish) the stark differences between sportive contexts and real World application, yet also offer a much more complete and deep knowledge and skill base than Combatives systems (allowing the practitioners to deal with much more skilled and dangerous opponents on a physical level).

All of those systems that you mentioned teach useful skills for LEO’s, provided that they are kept in context (as you said, clinching with someone in a Gi/Rashguard/singlet is very different and requires a very different focus than clinching with them while wearing body armor or having to worry about them accessing your side arm or OC, biting you, etc…). That’s not to say that any good resistance based training (which all of the above systems engage in regularly across the board) is not beneficial in getting someone used to the discomfort, physical stress/conditioning, contact, and feel of fighting; it is and if that is what you have access to I would take it. It’s just that if you have the choice between a quality RMA and a quality SMA you should choose the RMA if you want to apply it to your LEO work.

Hope this helps.


#11

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Offering a mix of arts does not an RMA make.[/quote]

I goofed the acronym there. I meant traditional martial arts school.

[quote]
All of those systems that you mentioned teach useful skills for LEO’s, provided that they are kept in context (as you said, clinching with someone in a Gi/Rashguard/singlet is very different and requires a very different focus than clinching with them while wearing body armor or having to worry about them accessing your side arm or OC, biting you, etc…). That’s not to say that any good resistance based training (which all of the above systems engage in regularly across the board) is not beneficial in getting someone used to the discomfort, physical stress/conditioning, contact, and feel of fighting; it is and if that is what you have access to I would take it. It’s just that if you have the choice between a quality RMA and a quality SMA you should choose the RMA if you want to apply it to your LEO work.

Hope this helps.[/quote]

At the end of the day, it’s better for me to get in the gym and disregard what doesn’t work and perfect the techniques that do against a resisting opponent.

Thanks to all for the replies.


#12

[quote]Watchdog wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Offering a mix of arts does not an RMA make.[/quote]

I goofed the acronym there. I meant traditional martial arts school.

Of course, testing things against resistance is really the only way to develop applicable skill or test viability. My only caveat is again to realize the contextual differences between sport Martial Arts and Reality Martial Arts and use that as your filter to decide which skills or tactics are practical for your LEO work.

Good luck.