T Nation

Study Says HGH Doesnt Work!?

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
I vote to ban Sikkario forever.

He can stay if he promises to use a less retarded avatar.
And posts less. A lot.
[/quote]

Check his profile. That avatar might be him.

Hgh doesn’t really start to kick in for a few months. At 3 months you may be just at the point you start to see the effects.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Hgh doesn’t really start to kick in for a few months. At 3 months you may be just at the point you start to see the effects. [/quote]

ZOMG! So as long as we’re 3 months old, it should work, right?

Point being, hGH is a naturally occurring hormone in the human body, just like Testosterone.
It would not be naturally occurring (as it is, endogenously) if it did not work.
Exogenous hGH supplementation works just like exogenous Test supplementation… it enhances the “pre-set” function, by supplying more of what is already there.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
<<< “The scientists note their analysis included few studies that measured performance.”

So, wait a second, this study doesn’t really test performance well…they didn’t test anyone on the amounts that athletes are supposed to actually be taking…but they just claimed that it doesn’t appear to improve strength or work capacity?
[/quote]
Professor X gave some good logical analysis of the flawed reporting of the study.

I’m going to add some more from a technical perspective. When I was a teaching assistant for an experimental design course at a research university, the professor (one of the best in the world in rigorous experimental design) had the students do an assignment where they find a study reported in a “popular media” source, then find and read the ACTUAL study, and critique the way the popular media reported it.

In virtually every case, the popular media source misunderstood, misinterpreted, and/or misapplied the study.

Here’s something that’s critical to understand about experimental design:

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO SHOW THAT SOMETHING “DOESN’T WORK” WITH STANDARD EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN.

So when “no difference” is found in a study, it CANNOT logically mean there really truly is no difference, because of the logical design of the ANOVA/t-test/chi-square/whatever statistical model is being used. You’ve heard the cliche “You can’t prove a negative,” right? That’s the gist of it.

There’s no way I can explain why this is true in a forum post, but the undergrad statistics book by Wonnacott & Wonnacott does a good job.

Anyone who finds or reports “there IS no difference” when a study simply found no difference does not understand how the statistical models work. So whenever you read something like this, pay no attention to it.

Furthermore, when any study reports only AVERAGES (means or medians) and not VARIABILITY, then the study designer doesn’t know what he’s doing. (This is sadly common in studies I read about on this site.)

For example, say you give HGH to one group of 10 athletes, and a placebo to another group of 10. After awhile you measure changes in body comp and performance. Now you average all 10 numbers for each group and compare them. See the problem here? Go look at ALL the individual numbers. Say you find that 5 HGH subjects had huge changes, and 5 had basically no change. It could be that the 5 with little change had naturally high levels of HGH to begin with, compared with the small doses you gave them. (You DID measure starting levels, right?)

The point is that every study is like a house of cards built on logical premises and assumptions; if any one of them is faulty or missing, the whole thing falls down.

If nothing else makes sense, just remember that (most) studies CANNOT prove that there really is zero difference.

(BTW, I make part of my living as a consultant helping researchers (in computer science) design and analyze experiments properly.)

I hope this helps.

I noticed one person said that testing higher dosages would be “unethical”. I would never, ever trust a scientist who puts subjective morality before the pursuit of knowledge.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
I vote to ban Sikkario forever.

He can stay if he promises to use a less retarded avatar.
And posts less. A lot.

Check his profile. That avatar might be him.[/quote]

Nice catch. And it’s definitely him.

This study is the equivalent of comparing how wealth effects the quality of life by giving 100 homeless people a $5 bill and asking them how things are going 30 days later.

[quote]Zell959 wrote:
This study is the equivalent of comparing how wealth effects the quality of life by giving 100 homeless people a $5 bill and asking them how things are going 30 days later.[/quote]

LOL.

[quote]Zell959 wrote:
This study is the equivalent of comparing how wealth effects the quality of life by giving 100 homeless people a $5 bill and asking them how things are going 30 days later.[/quote]

Nice analogy.

BTW. I was being sarcastic in my post, sorry if anyone thought i was being serious… I was posting so T-Nation members can comment on how stupid it is.

EDIT: I even said “Sounds bs to me, someone elaborate?”
bs = bullshit for those that didnt understand. I didnt believe the article because i know (recent article) that muscle comes with strength, and strength comes with muscle. All i wanted was for people to see how theyre persuading people to not use HGH and other “enhancements.” Its propaganda. Once again, sorry if anyone misunderstood.

Fail again.

[quote]ahzaz wrote:
BTW. I was being sarcastic in my post, sorry if anyone thought i was being serious… I was posting so T-Nation members can comment on how stupid it is.

EDIT: I even said “Sounds bs to me, someone elaborate?”
bs = bullshit for those that didnt understand. I didnt believe the article because i know (recent article) that muscle comes with strength, and strength comes with muscle. All i wanted was for people to see how theyre persuading people to not use HGH and other “enhancements.” Its propaganda. Once again, sorry if anyone misunderstood.[/quote]

Btw, if there is one thing I’ve learned in life, it’s that you look a lot less intelligent trying to backtrack yourself out of looking stupid than if you just man up and say, “Damn, you’re right, I was an idiot, my bad.”

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
BTW. I was being sarcastic in my post, sorry if anyone thought i was being serious… I was posting so T-Nation members can comment on how stupid it is.

EDIT: I even said “Sounds bs to me, someone elaborate?”
bs = bullshit for those that didnt understand. I didnt believe the article because i know (recent article) that muscle comes with strength, and strength comes with muscle. All i wanted was for people to see how theyre persuading people to not use HGH and other “enhancements.” Its propaganda. Once again, sorry if anyone misunderstood.

Btw, if there is one thing I’ve learned in life, it’s that you look a lot less intelligent trying to backtrack yourself out of looking stupid than if you just man up and say, “Damn, you’re right, I was an idiot, my bad.” [/quote]

Backtrack myself out of looking stupid? I didnt say anything stupid to start off with, i said it sounded bs to me. I put this article up to see what T-Nation members think about it, thats all

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
I vote to ban Sikkario forever.

He can stay if he promises to use a less retarded avatar.
And posts less. A lot.

Check his profile. That avatar might be him.[/quote]

He confirmed it on another thread where someone said the rapper in his avatar looks like a tool. It is him.

[quote]ahzaz wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
BTW. I was being sarcastic in my post, sorry if anyone thought i was being serious… I was posting so T-Nation members can comment on how stupid it is.

EDIT: I even said “Sounds bs to me, someone elaborate?”
bs = bullshit for those that didnt understand. I didnt believe the article because i know (recent article) that muscle comes with strength, and strength comes with muscle. All i wanted was for people to see how theyre persuading people to not use HGH and other “enhancements.” Its propaganda. Once again, sorry if anyone misunderstood.

Btw, if there is one thing I’ve learned in life, it’s that you look a lot less intelligent trying to backtrack yourself out of looking stupid than if you just man up and say, “Damn, you’re right, I was an idiot, my bad.”

Backtrack myself out of looking stupid? I didnt say anything stupid to start off with, i said it sounded bs to me. I put this article up to see what T-Nation members think about it, thats all[/quote]

I think they are getting you mixed up with the idiot that has the sparked grill. You pretty much said it was bs from what I understood.

[quote]Higher Game wrote:
I noticed one person said that testing higher dosages would be “unethical”. I would never, ever trust a scientist who puts subjective morality before the pursuit of knowledge.[/quote]

who would sign up for that study?
I would.

Ok, to limit the number of stupid people in the world, I have a plan.

Make a gym that offers only treadmills and bikes and gives everyone that is a new member this article to persuade them that they are actually helping the people that join. So once they join and you ask them if this article is bullshit and they say no, they are now allowed to be hunted. When running on the treadmill, all idiots (see above) are free game. No license is needed to participate in this hunt.