Thunder, where does the fat load go? Is it with the carb load? before it?
What kind of fats are you adding?
Ok, so we’re at Thursday and two days out from the big day. One more point I want to make is that for really see what these two days can do, you have to be depleted and shhhhreeeeddddded. You’ll get good effects if you’re not as low as you can be, but it’s much more dramatic when you’re diced and sliced.
So, Thursday represents Day 1 of the carb up. There has been a bit of talk on this before but I’ll put the numbers out here as well. Two hours prior (let’s call this 6am) to a full body depletion workout have a little bit of solid protein (i.e. chicken) and an apple or two. The fructose is a good thing here as it reintroduces sugar and will help upregulate the glycolytic enzymes of the liver.
At 8am, you’re in the gym training. The workout should be done circuit style (no quad work). Pick a movement for each body part and perform 15-20 reps (no exaggerated negatives) with about 50% of your max. Do this for your whole body, rest 2 minutes, and then pick a new movement for each body part and start over. It’s probably wise to design 3 cycles this way and just rotate through them until you hit the wall. It will probably take 90-120 minutes of this torture (and trust me, it’s nauseating) to deplete. You should also be aware that different muscles will deplete earlier. You’ll know when it happens. You’ll be cruising along in your set and then WHAM you fail. (Rep 8 is a piece of cake, and then 9 buries you, for example.) At this point, that muscle group is pretty much done.
As soon as you’re done, the onslaught begins. Day 1 consists of 10g/kg LBM in carbs, which should comprise 65-70% of your daily total with the remaining 30% split between protein and fat. The fat should come in towards the end of the day.
The first meal after the depletion workout should be 1.5g/kg LBM of maltodextrin and dextrose with about 20g of fast acting protein. This meal should then be repeated for the second meal. Carbs for this day are of the high GI type and after the first two meals, protein is solid (no shakes) and meals are usually in the 8-10 range. I usually rice cakes (White Cheddar for the salt) for the first solid meal and then move to white potatoes. However, two of the meals should be oatmeal mixed with pie filling, which are spaced about 6 hours apart. Probably meals 4 and 7. Towards the end of the day you can switch from chicken/turkey to red meat for protein, which starts the introduction of the fat. As well, I generally put some cashews in these meals as well. Since there are many meals to eat on the first day, keep protein per meal reasonable. Usually 2oz per meal is fine. You’ll still end up over 200g.
Water intake again is still through the roof.
It’s possible for the first day of carbing for glycogen levels to be resynthesized to almost 100% of normal levels (100-110 mmol/kg) IF enough carbs are consumed. But then again, we’re not after normal levels.
The first two meals are very important since enzyme activity and resynthesis rates are at their highest. I think it’s about 12 mmol/kg/hr and then it goes down from here to somewhere in the 5-12 mmol range.
After this first day, you should begin to ?feel? full, but will probably be a bit watery. Towards the end of the second day is when it really begins to happen…
Good stuff guys. A few questions.
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What about potassium loading? If so, how many days out and how much should be taken?
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What is the best time to lower water consumption? Is 2 days out with the carb load period appropriate?
I know very litle about looking my best for a photo shoot/contest. Luckily, I can be taking pictures on a daily basis unlike competitors that have to look their best at an exact time.
This is one killa thread here!
Question on the oatmeal w/pie filling. Is this the pie filling in the can? We’re talking the massively high sugars here, right? Not being terribly familiar w/pie filling, is there a common brand name to be on the look out for?
Thanks
Thunder, really good stuff so far my man, I have a quick Q for you. After the first day of loading is it wise to gague, and see where you are at to further continue? Also should one change there carb choices after this 1st day? I suppose you will get into this, so I will remain patient
Does anyone still play with Glycerol?
Machine: Potassium loading is not wise, even less so if diuretics are being used. Both potassium and sodium are so very delicately controlled so you can really only push them so much. You can end up with the same problems one would get if they cut their water and sodium too early – a big fat increase in aldosterone. Aldosterone is a hormone which is released in times of any kind of stress and causes an increase in potassium excretion and a decreased excretion of sodium and water – not good for us.
Secondly, cutting water too early will make you hold water. 2 days is too early. Plus you can’t carb up well without water.
BodyIQ: You got it. Good ol’ canned pie filling. The kind your mom put in pies when you were young. The high sugar stuff. I could eat a can of that stuff with a spoon.
Janderstein: No need to guage after the first day. You won’t be ready yet.
Jeff: No, no one plays with glycerol anymore. That was a waste.
Thunder, T-Rock likes the juice, baby! Glad you decided to give this thread the kick in the pants. Obviously a most wanted piece of work.
As far as rates of resynthesis go, the first couple of hours represent about 7-8% (i.e. 7-8 mmol/kg) per hour at absolute maximum. The rest of the time you’re probably looking at 3-4% (i.e. 3-4 mmol/kg) per hour.
T-Cat, thanks for reitterating that one need be shredded to see optimal results from such a protocol.
In reference to the circuit, Thunder did not give rest between sets in the circuit, which I would therefore relegate as one minute or less.
If there are any other geeks like myself who want to understand the physiological mechanisms behind this stuff (i.e. How do you supercompensate?, etc.), just holla and we’ll see what we can do. I know that I like the why more than the how, personally.
As far as the water intake, what we try to do is keep those hormones cranking that are related to water and sodium excretion. Therefore, when we drastically cut exogenous sources of such, the body does not have adequate time to adjust and downregulate those hormones. Rather, the body continues to elimate these substances (i.e. water and Na+) and we then achieve that saran wrap skin we’re looking to achieve.
Machine…Where the heck have you been, buddy! I’ve missed the heck out of you.
Sorry about that outburst. Just so you guys get a feel for why this supercompensation method is so valuable for competitive physique athletes…Under normal circumstances, each 100g of muscle holds about 1.7g of glycogen. The little method that Thunder is presenting will allow one to pack a massive 4-5g of glycogen in that same 100g! Holy shnikes!
Thunder, I just wanted to add that I really value and appreciate all the time that you’re spending on this thread and on the forum as a whole. I really value your company.
Just don’t take too much time away from your new bride;-) She deserves more time than us, bro.
Big T:
Where did you get your resynthesis values? I’m going to look mine up over the weekend as well. I’m pretty sure I have data that indicate higher levels than you’re indicating, but maybe it’s outdated.
And more importantly, it falls under the category of minutia anyway.
Back to the fun stuff. Fat loading to come tomorrow…
Thunder, sorry if my question was unclear. I’ll try to express myself better here.
I’ve lost about 3% BF over the course of the past couple of months. Right now I’m at about 12%. While this is nowhere near “contest shape”, I haven’t been able to drop lower without starting to really lose LBM, and I don’t want to do that, as I’m a skinny bastard to start with.
So…what I’ve decided to do for the lst week or so is go on a bulking program (Growth Surge II, with MAG-10) and see if I can’t add a few pounds without increasing my BF. While I’ve done this in the past and been happy with the results, in the past I haven’t been worrying about taking pictures at the end of the phase. So I was wondering if you had any advice for a person who isn’t carb-depleted at all, but will actually be gaining weight for the last week/10 days or so.
I understand that I’m not going to look as good as I would if I went through a deplete/refeed and so on. That’s fine. Just looking to see if you had any tricks or techniques that might make a difference in my situation.
Hope that clears things up! Thanks.
Char: While obviously this won’t be optimal, here’s what I would do in that situation:
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Sodium high in the last week (only provided you’ve had it up for the duration of your diet)
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Water at 3 gallons starting a week from when you’re taking your pictures.
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The day before your pictures deplete. Zero carbs – just protein and fat (think keto). You’ll get a natural diuretic effect from dropping your carbs.
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18 hrs from your pictures, cut your water out and just sip AS NEEDED.
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Morning of your pictures, (assume they’re at 10am) go eat something like pancakes and syrup, steak, eggs, donuts, whatever at about 6am. However, NO WATER is allowed.
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Assuming you’ll pump up for your pictures, starting 90 mins from your pump up have a couple tbsps of jam or have it on rice cakes or something.
Oh yeah, about 5 days out I’d start using a herbal diuretic of some sort.
If you feel that the breakfast doesn’t hold your fullness, do it again on a smaller scale around 830 or so.
Again, this is an outline, It may have to be tweaked by yourself based on what the mirror is telling you.
Good luck.
Thunder,
My 7-8mmol/kg/hr figures come from a couple sources:
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Coyle, EF. Substrate utilization during exercise in active people. Am J Clin Nutr. 61: 968S-979S, 1995.
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Ivy, JL. Role of carbohydrate in physical activity. Clinics in Sports Medicine 18: 469-484, 1999.
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Lectures from the aforementioned authors.
All in all, it’s not that big of a deal, though. The few hours after training are most important for glycogen replenishment. But it’s a matter of getting enough carbs throughout the time period to supercompensate.
Yo timbo, thunder or anyone who has done this some Q’s
- How long does the photogenic state last? what kind of state follows it and whats your post shoot nutrition and training recommendtions?
2.How about a shoot which lasts several days? will the tips still work?
3.How sliced and shreded is “sliced and shreded”? 4%? 5%? 6%?
10x
S-man.
Great questions, Spanky!
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How long the photogenic state lasts likely depends on your subsequent dietary habits in the hours and days following the protocol. However, your body’s hormones will begin to adjust soon thereafter, and the water/sodium manipulations may not hold very long. That being said, if carbohydrate consumption is up in the 60% of total kcal range, one should be able to hold the supercompensated state for up to 3 days. Post shoot nutriton? Well, I’m sure you’ve heard of the dietary strategies of bodybuilders after a contest. If you’re that lean and have fought for that long and that hard to get there, I really see nothing wrong with such a feast. I would actually recommend it, as it will do nothing to put a dent in your awesome physique.
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Thunder may have some more comments on this. My suggestion would be to keep carbohydrate consumption and total kcals adequate. Water intake would have to return to a more normal level, as keeping it so low–as well as sodium–would result in a drastic hormonal shift that would cause you to retain such.
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To see the best physique responses, I would guess that <6% fat would be required. That is, 5% and lower.
Thunder,
how much fat and protien do you suggest for the day before the pictures?
Thunder…how many calories would u suggest for the 6AM pre shoot meal for a 170lb person.
So, to put a cap on that ass, or for the lay people, to recap what we’ve got for Day One of the carbup (two days before showtime):
*Two hours pre-training, eat a solid protein source and one or two pieces of fruit (i.e. apples, pears, oranges, etc).
*Train. Circuit-style training session. Choose one exercise for each bodypart (minus quads) and perform 15-20 reps with a weight that’s about 50% of 1RM. Rest 1 minute between sets. Perform two or three of these circuits, depending on when you hit the wall.
*Consume 1.5g/kg LBM of a combo of malto and dextrose with ~20g of protein (i.e. whey isolate) immediately after training. Consume the same thing two hours later.
*The rest of the day, eat enough carbs to meet 10g/kg LBM for the day. Carbs should constitute about 70% of total kcals, and the remaining 30% of kcals should be evenly split between protein and fat.
*Make sure that two meals–spaced apart–are composed of oats and sugary pie filling. The rest of your carbs should be of the high GI variety (i.e. rice cakes, white potatoes, fig newtons, etc).
*Switch to red meat as the day wears on and begin to add in some fats to your meals (i.e. mixed nuts).
*Water intake should be in the 2-3 gallon range.
Alrighty then, Thunder, even though I’m not participating in this, I’m one excited SOB! Let’s move onto Day Two: The Fat Load, as well as the big day and the pre-shoot/competition meal.
Thunder, thanks for the very specific reply. I’ll give your recommendations a shot and let you know how it goes.