Struggling Off the Floor

For what it’s worth: initial pull from the floor is where I’m weaker too, been working on it in the last few months. Some random thoughts:
-low bar squats have an obvious carryover to DLs, can’t go wrong with them;
-I too do front squats as main strength excercise in 5/3/1 sets, might not be optimal but as my numbers in FS increased, the numbers in DLs increased too and pull off the floor became less and less of a problem;
-Leg press as assistance, 5x10, done on squat day. Yes, the leg press, keeping a starting stance similar to the one I use on DLs (back angle, knee/ankle angles and such);

That’s what I did, as soon as I felt I was slow on the initial pull from the floor I put 5x10 snatch grip DLs on DL day and 5x10 leg press on squat day, kept working hard on the main sets of DLs and Front Squats and the issue has been constantly improving. I can’t pinpoint the single thing that helped me but that’s it.
Five months ago before starting the program my DL 1RM was a grinded 140kg with belt, a few days ago on the 1+ week I hit 136kg x9 with no belt. Nothing fancy but can’t complain.

EDIT: also, if you’re deadlifting sumo, check a few articles from the website. There is a specific one (maybe “master the sumo deadlift”) where the issue about the initial pull is addressed, because that’s where the sticking point is when going sumo

You may not particularly like the tone of their responses but Old Bean and JFG are right.
The way you are training as described in your original post is not optimal for increasing 1RM (I used to do the same thing). I would suggest backing off the weight for a while (reduce you training max as it sounds like its probably a bit too high) then trying again at 180 in a couple of months.
The assistance exercises you choose will only make a difference at the margin, far more important is the level of stress you are putting your muscles through in your training (determined by frequency, intensity, volume etc)

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I think will back off on Jokers. I’ll start my next cycle in my 3x5 and 3x3 weeks just in the main work. But better believe I will try and hoist 180 again on my 531 day. I posted this question on coach Christian Thibaudeaus forum. He asked a few good questions about what’s going on. His assessment based on my answers was that I obviously have a weakness in core strength. Not strength per say but lack the ability to contract hard enough for the duration of the pull. Especially off of the floor. He prescribed a healthy dose of Zercher holds, Zercher squats, farmer carries and direct Ab work. Based on our conversation I believe 100% that this is a glaring weakness. I’ll bust my ass trying to bring this up over a few weeks. If successful ill let you know. I’ve been stubborn for 30 years. Don’t think that will change anytime soon. I have to try. Can’t help it. If I fail. That’s OK, I’ll be better for it and learn from my mistakes

Congratulations man, that’s awesome! Keep it up. Thanks for sharing your experience with me. It’s good to hear I’m not alone haha. I’ll definitely take into account what worked for you.

EDIT: check out my post in coach CTs forum. Maybe what he told me could help you as well. Good luck bro

Once you understand TM, the big picture and the philosophy, your numbers will go up.

I’ve answered this in the last thread.

You are doing everything, every week, all the time and you ask why your numbers are not going up. Yes, got that.

My answer remains. Reading comprehension. Don’t like the tone? Sorry buttercup. Dose of reality is good for the soul. Deficit deads are great (as mentioned above) but not for you.

You need to open your mind and see the big picture.

Good luck.

Again, don’t program Jokers. It’s nice to have a goal, but stupid to try if conditions are not completely correct. Jim and many other coaches believe in never missing a lift, something of which you have done multiple times in the past month it seems.

Also, strength is not built in weeks my friend. If you do have some abnormalities that no one else ubderstands, it will take you months at the very least to address. Adding in new assistance or supplemental exercises will not boost your maxes over night. And if you do not compete, who really cares what your max is? Just get stronger using sub max weight and see where it goes. Just my two cents, but you’ll probably get offended by people trying to help you so so be it.

@JFG go look at his program he wrote up at the end of the Thib forum post

What man? It’s a hodge podge of different programs with exercises Jim hates. Not saying there is anything wrong with what you’re trying to do, but the problem is you still haven’t just ran the program. You may be weak off the floor, maybe. But the fact remains you are struggling to pull sub 400 pounds. You’re just weak in general. I’m not saying this in a rude or condescending way, but you need to just gain more strength. There is no way you shouldn’t be able to build a near 500 pull by just following the program as is. It is absurd to me that you just started posting in a different forum when you didn’t get the answer you wanted. So yes, really and yes, wow.

My original post was respectful with my thoughts. You didn’t listen. You’re a grown ass man with real shit to do in your life. Join the club. You don’t like listening to keyboard warriors. I’m between 195 and 205, and have deadlifted in the mid 500s.

All I have tried to do is help you bro. If you follow the program as is, you will get stronger. Trust in the process and after 6 months to a year, try and fix what doesn’t work. And if you aren’t a rookie, why ask for help on something obvious? Maybe I am being a dick, but I just don’t get that.

Once again, I said that was not originally aimed at you. Your original comment was completely fine. I didn’t listen because my question wasn’t answered

That seems to be the case. I can see that now. Maybe in the future try a different approach. If you really only want to help people and not stroke the ego a little it may be helpful in not coming off that way. In which case no one will listen to what you have to say. Valid or not. Just my opinion for what it’s worth

Being ‘weak off the floor’ generally means your too weak for the weight and/or you have technique issues. Assistance exercises won’t really help with this unless they somehow cue you to improve technique.
You may well have issues bracing and instead are yanking on the bar (often happens when people are going for a new pr). You may want to post a video of your form in the Powerlifting forum guys there are good with giving feedback.
Also check out Chris Duffin’s videos on bracing and deadlift technique, in my opinion what he says and cues are more intuitive and a better protocol that what CT said in your other thread.

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I didn’t know that was available. That’s a great idea. Thank you. I’ll be sure to do that next week and see what they have to say. Maybe I’m just stubborn and full of shit but I genuinely feel like it’s a technique/cue issue holding me back. [quote=“gt213, post:42, topic:228554”]
check out Chris Duffin’s videos on bracing and deadlift technique
[/quote]

I will do that right now. Thanks @gt213
I look forward to posting a video of pulling 180 for a triple. It will feel good to know I’m on my way to getting back to my old self

I can only confirm what gt213 said: lower your TM, it’s a simply strength issue. There’s no need to complicate things by breaking the deadlift down to its component parts. This talk about deficit deads, RDL, GMs et al, are usually confined to those lifting 500lbs and above. Really, if 170kg was lifted for 3 reps (with the 3rd being, as you wrote, “a tad ugly”) then it’s no surprise that 180kg was not going to move after a few minutes rest. I’m in the same boat, the lift from the floor is always the problem–I lift Sumo–but your experience is pretty much par for the course.
Lower your TM to 160kg, don’t do a single Joker (Jim wrote that he regrets that part in Beyond as people now take it as gospel and add Jokers excessively) and utilise the Leader/Anchor protocol. I always avoided 5s PRO and now see how it is a wonderful tool to regulate your own intensity; sometimes I’m my own worst enemy and need to back off from going to failure.
One thing does confuse me though, if you’re doing 531, why did you post your initial question on Christian Thibaudeau’s forum?

Best,
Ray

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Maybe it is to my detriment. But I’ve decided to leave my TM the same for another cycle. I feel that is a happy medium for me.

Is this what is called 5’s progression in the beyond 531 book? Pg.50
May have to consider this as an alternative. He does talk about it being good for 531 noobs and ones coming off of injury. Could be what I need. [quote=“RayWilliams, post:44, topic:228554”]
if you’re doing 531, why did you post your initial question on Christian Thibaudeau’s forum?
[/quote]

I posted on CTs forum after posting here. I was seeking help on my DL (the movement, not a program) but all I got here was mostly about how I am committing 531 heresy. So I sought the advice of CT on my movement, he doesn’t care what program I’m doing.

I really appreciate your input. You and @gt213 have help clear things up for me

@RayWilliams
Here is something I have been cooking up for a little bit now. This is what my next cycle will look like. What do you think? Anything that could be better?
NOTE: The Back Squat number is actually the same as Front Squats because I’m doing only Front Squats and didn’t feel like changing my formulas. Also my press is set up for a pyramid.

There is so much extra stuff here, got the classic bbb with fsl that needs to be a damn sticky here. It seems like you’ve got your mind made up and are doing your own thing no matter the advice, but please don’t consider what you’re doing to be 531. If it doesn’t work out I would look at seriously trimming things back per one of the actual 531 programs that appeals to you.

Where are the Zerchers? I know you will take this wrong, but I really am asking!

I never said addressing weaknesses wont make you stronger, I said for you, it is not the answer (in the context of what you ask here and CT’s forum). If you follow someone’s proven program and not getting results, its not the program, its you. Be it your diet, technique, overcomplicating simple shit, etc.

If you would just stop for a second, look at the big picture, lower your TM, do 5/3/1, FSL, one assistance from Wendler six and stay the path for 6 months! I’m pretty sure you will break that sticking point, if the rest is also on par (food, sleep, conditioning, etc).

In the end, do what you like and that keeps you going to the gym, buttercup.

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Do this: 5/3/1 for Hardgainers - T Nation Content - COMMUNITY - T NATION

  1. Reset TMs to a weight you can get for 5 good reps
  2. Run this program as written for 3 cycles with a deload week after the second cycle.
  3. Test maxes the following week if feeling good.

If you did that, spent some time working on form, eat and sleep well etc… i’d be amazed if you didn’t get 180 (if not for reps) by the end.
4. Do some reading on this forum on leaders and anchors and/or buy Jim’s new book and use these principles for your programming going forward.

170 is clearly too high of a TM to use. It should be 85%-90% of your 1RM, given you can’t get 180 off the floor, your TM should be 150-155ish.

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It’s a pain to change formulas around in the spreadsheet. I made it a couple of weeks ago. My plan is to just replace the assistance squats with a 5x10 Zercher

Thats honestly how I feel. What you guys are trying to get me to do is boring as shit. I’d rather get strength gains that are not “optimal” and actually enjoy my training. I like doing some bodybuilding work, I like doing some O lifts, I like doing some squats and Deadlifts. Maybe the answer for me is to keep my strength work on a typical 5x3… moron