Stronger Deadlift: Oly Lifter vs Powerlifter?

[quote]SpoonMan89 wrote:
While these are all pointless comparisons (i.e How will the resolution of this argument help you, me or anyone lift more weight?) the topic does interest me.

Wrah, you are asking for arguments against your opinion that Olympic lifters would outlift a Powerlifter in the deadlift (see thread title). Has any Olympic weightlifter, in a competition, ever out-deadlifted Benni Magnusson in just a belt? That’s my argument- simple numbers. The ball is in your court to disprove it now. Until you can say “Yes”, you aren’t correct. Talking about acceleration and ‘who is stronger’ proves nothing- producing bigger deadlifts does.

Simple convention proves you wrong, training the deadlift using the methods that top powerlifters use yields a higher deadlift than training as top weightlifters do. The fast lifts do help the deadlift, but to do the powerlifts, you have to train like a powerlifter. In order to disprove this argument, you need to show us a bigger deadlift.

It’s not ‘our’ arguments challenging you here. You don’t ‘win’ just because no one is taking the time to disprove you. And ultimately, there is no resolution to be found with baseless comparisons- until you find a weightlifter and pay him to do a powerlifting meet and officially lift 1050 (or do it yourself using Olympic training methods), the argument counts for nothing.

PB Andy didn’t ‘appeal to authority’, he reminded you that you didn’t know who you were talking to. If you want to carry on a civil discussion, address TheJonty’s points one by one, and respect him.

You have had many good arguments presented against you (you did ask for them, remember), but you have glossed over them, which is why people aren’t respecting your opinions. I agree that curiosity to improve is an important characteristic in a strength athlete, but defend your opinions, don’t just attack other people.

If you respond to this post at all, please do go through it carefully, and approach it maturely. If not, don’t respond at all.[/quote]

Fuck you.

[quote]Ajax wrote:

[quote]XiaoNio wrote:
I slogged through 3 pages of this, and I’m surprised a bigger deal hasn’t been made about form.

The bar path for Olympic lifting is different from that of a deadlift. The pull from the floor that is optimal for a clean is completely different from that for a maximal weight deadlift.

I’ve noticed, when I train with a focus on olympic lifting, my ability to do conventional deadlifts actually decreases a bit. Similarly, when I’ve trained to focus on deadlifting, it ruins my ability to set up my pull for cleans.

Specificity breeds excellence. If I want to get better at deadlifting, I’m going to work only on picking up the barbell. That’s a completely different skill from being able to pick up a barbell and catching it at the chest.[/quote]

This is absolutely correct. Despite their superficial resemblances, cleans/clean pulls etc. and deadlifts are very, very different.

A hypothetical far more interesting than how would o-lifters fare against powerlifters in deadlifting might be: who would be the better overhead pressers?

After 1972, the press was dropped from olympic weightlifting, and the snatch and C&J became the only two contested lifts. The training of weightlifters accordingly changed significantly. Maximal upper body strength was no longer a priority – just enough to fix a snatch or jerk overhead was all that was needed. And the art of pressing disappeared. Today’s o-lifters are no longer specialists in overhead pressing.

So if you could take an accomplished group of o-lifters and one of powerlifters, and test each at 3-month, 6-month, and 12-month intervals, I wonder which group would hold the advantage in the standing overhead press? My guess would be that the powerlifters would have a strong initial advantage.
[/quote]

Now that would be interesting.

Wrah’s pretty entertaining… he put up a good fight.

lol i had a feeling that wrah was a troll all along. its a shame these idiots are spreading even as far as olympic lifting forums now

Some new user names appearing. Maybe some very scared people thought it would be a safer to make a new handle to call out the bringer of truth?

omg look at this Wrah troll, join date Oct 2007. so obvi. obvi troll is obvi.

Calling someone else an obvious troll over and over might be a sign of reflection and passive aggressive behaviour.

uh, what?

ok will let thread die now.

holy crap. if i wanted to get better at deadlift i’d listen to this dude:

[quote]alexus wrote:
holy crap. if i wanted to get better at deadlift i’d listen to this dude:

Why? he’s obviously an amateur deadlifter.

What size are those plates? 45lbs?


How much weight is he lifting? Are those 45lbs? He looks like hes going to poo.[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Just looking for an excuse to post this awesomeness again. One of the greatest lifts ever.[/quote]

I believe those are 100 pound plates, but its 1015 pounds all together.

So how much can today’s weightlifters strict press?

russians press ridiculous amounts of weight, chigishev was reported to do easy 5x140 in training hall, Klokov power clean+press 157k…

can’t don’t know where to find the video on youtube but some Russian dude (105 class I think) did a 170kg press. jesus.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
can’t don’t know where to find the video on youtube but some Russian dude (105 class I think) did a 170kg press. jesus.[/quote]

A 157 kg press – let alone a 170 kg press – is nothing to sneeze at. But to put things in a bit of perspective, Leonid Zhabotinsky pressed 187.5 kg in 1964 in Tokyo, and Yuri Vlasov pressed 197.5 kg. I don’t know what they weighed exactly, they were competing in the 90+ kg class. Later Zhabotinsky competed in the 110 kg class, so probably was not too far away from 105 kg. Vlasov remained a super-heavy.

I couldn’t find international results for the press before its elimination in 1972, but I know they were staggering.

I did find what looks like THE definitive article on the history of the press, why it was dropped, and what the possible consequences were: the decline of OWL and the rise of bodybuilding and powerlifting. The elimination of the press made upper body size and strength less important in OWL, but those two things were precisely what attracted most young men to the sport. Here is the link:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH2001/JSH2803/JSH2803d.pdf

[quote]Ajax wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
can’t don’t know where to find the video on youtube but some Russian dude (105 class I think) did a 170kg press. jesus.[/quote]

A 157 kg press – let alone a 170 kg press – is nothing to sneeze at. But to put things in a bit of perspective, Leonid Zhabotinsky pressed 187.5 kg in 1964 in Tokyo, and Yuri Vlasov pressed 197.5 kg. I don’t know what they weighed exactly, they were competing in the 90+ kg class. Later Zhabotinsky competed in the 110 kg class, so probably was not too far away from 105 kg. Vlasov remained a super-heavy.

I couldn’t find international results for the press before its elimination in 1972, but I know they were staggering.

I did find what looks like THE definitive article on the history of the press, why it was dropped, and what the possible consequences were: the decline of OWL and the rise of bodybuilding and powerlifting. The elimination of the press made upper body size and strength less important in OWL, but those two things were precisely what attracted most young men to the sport. Here is the link:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH2001/JSH2803/JSH2803d.pdf[/quote]

The 157kg press Klokov did was a helluva lot stricter than any of the presses I’ve seen in old videos of the clean and press. Just saying.

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Ajax wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
can’t don’t know where to find the video on youtube but some Russian dude (105 class I think) did a 170kg press. jesus.[/quote]

A 157 kg press – let alone a 170 kg press – is nothing to sneeze at. But to put things in a bit of perspective, Leonid Zhabotinsky pressed 187.5 kg in 1964 in Tokyo, and Yuri Vlasov pressed 197.5 kg. I don’t know what they weighed exactly, they were competing in the 90+ kg class. Later Zhabotinsky competed in the 110 kg class, so probably was not too far away from 105 kg. Vlasov remained a super-heavy.

I couldn’t find international results for the press before its elimination in 1972, but I know they were staggering.

I did find what looks like THE definitive article on the history of the press, why it was dropped, and what the possible consequences were: the decline of OWL and the rise of bodybuilding and powerlifting. The elimination of the press made upper body size and strength less important in OWL, but those two things were precisely what attracted most young men to the sport. Here is the link:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH2001/JSH2803/JSH2803d.pdf[/quote]

The 157kg press Klokov did was a helluva lot stricter than any of the presses I’ve seen in old videos of the clean and press. Just saying.[/quote]

Yes, stricter than most to be sure. How many kilos does looser or “better” technique get you in the press, I don’t know. How long would it take someone like Klokov to master the old pressing technique and improve his pressing strength such that he could add 20-30 kg, I don’t know. Most coaches agreed that the elimination of the press led to a decrease in the upper body mass and strength of weightlifters. Some thought this was good. Others, like Spassov from Bulgaria, argued that dropping the press contributed to an increase in shoulder injuries on the snatch. So I suppose there are two questions: 1) How much strength did weightlifters lose after dropping the press? The example of Klokov may suggest, not so much. 2) How long would it take today’s weightlifters to press as much as their predecessors some 40 years ago did?

And then I guess the third question, 3) Would powerlifters be at any advantage, at least initially?

I heard (for what it is worth which is probably not a lot) that the elimination of the press resulted in the ideal bodytype for a weightlifter changing. Not sure why that would be the case, though. short arms ftw!!! Something about the rise of the elastic strongman.