T Nation

Strong Words (Alwyn Cosgrove)


And those cancer specialists at UCLA were ILLEGAL immigrants I suppose? They were on welfare and food stamps? They were driving without car insurance? They are all getting free health care and not paying taxes?

What do you not get about people wanting ILLEGAL immigrants to play by the rules or get the hell out? We ALL have to, immigrant or not.

To paraphrase; "It's the ILLEGALITY, stupid!"

Stick THAT up your arse!


Apparently our government cares more about the companies who hire illegal immigrants. They could've done two things: raise the minimum wages from slave pay to reasonable amounts based on cost of living and force everyone to pay immigrants as much as citizens. Any insentive for hiring illegals over citizens is effectively destroyed.


If it weren't for illegal immigrants, my gym and Walmart would never get cleaned!!


So how about sending half of the over 11 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. over to Scotland?

Sound like a plan?

I used to run a warehouse which received, stored and shipped thousands of pounds of structural aluminum per day. I was in charge of hiring temp. help. I ALWAYS chose to hire Peurto Rican, Cuban and Brazillian guys to help me. These guys payed taxes, busted thier asses and contributed to society along with being great guys after we got around any language barriers.

They had many common themes among them. They DESPISED illegal immigrants, they concidered themselves Americans first. And they wanted to work for a day's pay. And I ALWAYS added extra $$$ in thier paychecks at the end of the day because they EARNED it.

Now THOSE guys were true Americans.


I know illegal immigrants contribute to the workforce but it has been shown that any gain is cancelled out by the drain on our healthcare/welfare system because by-and-large they do not pay into the system.


Maybe some. But really the disturbing thing about that observation is that American's are not doctors because our science education is largely failing. Doctorate level degree holders are, across the board in sciences and engineering, more and more not Americans. Good way to become a Thirld World nation in a hurry.

Probably not. But many of the patients doctors see at county hospitals in Los Angeles, and everywhere else, are on welfare and food stamps and--get this--they are American citizens.

Plenty of citizens do this too. Might have something to do with the cozy relationship between insurance lobbyists and government such that the rates are ridiculous now even for good drivers.

Call me a commie but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that people should get "free" health care. I mean if I can pay for it myself, I'm going to. But I don't exactly mind if some small fraction of my tax dollars pay to save a life somewhere for someone who can't afford it. I mean if you came across someone bleeding in the street you probably wouldn't demand money to help them first.

The reality is that far more of your tax dollars are going to support the healthcare of other Americans--be it through Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security payments. The fraction going to the treatment of illegals is not so large in comparison.

If we're being pragmatic here--the illegals are working, the recipients of this other aid are usually not. So I don't know why you'd have a problem with working people as opposed to non-working people.

For instance, I'm sure a great many of the super obese--you know those 500+ lb folks that need the cranes to lift them out of the house--are supported by tax payers. I'm more concerned about supporting lazy, gluttonous Americans that giving vaccines to the kids of folks who are picking my strawberries.

Oh yeah, access to health care is a public health issue. I don't want some illegal immigrant with bird flu to not go to a doctor because he's afraid he'll get deported. Keep everyone else healthy so I don't die from an infectious disease sounds like a good policy.

They pay sales taxes, so they contribute to state coffers. We're not even supposed to have a federal income tax to begin with, so they're not really any different than citizen tax resisters. They also have to pay all the same stupid taxes to subsidize telephone companies and the like when they get utility services. So they're not paying for the war. Big fucking deal.

Oh yeah, did you know corporations don't pay their fair share of taxes. Not to mention the super rich. I don't see why you think it's cool for the wealthiest to shirk their tax obligations and place the burden on the working class, but you have a problem with the very poorest not paying taxes.

This is also an incredibly stupid argument because these people generally make so little that they'd be getting refunds on their taxes anyway. They'd basically be paying social security taxes to support our elderly population--but they're often already sending money home to support their own elderly. Sounds reasonable to me. Hell, I don't even want to pay social security. I can't blame them.

No, usually if you have money in this country you don't have to play by the rules. The government doesn't have to play by the rules. Coporations don't play by the rules. But it is typical when there is class strife that the ruling class turns the middle classes against the poorest classes. You're falling for the oldest trick in the book. Your enemies are the ones running the media telling you where to vent your anger all while picking your pockets clean.

No doubt there is a lot of stupidity involved with the immigration process and thinking about immigration. The solution is really mind numbingly simple--give out x number of worker visas per year which are subject to taxes, and the visiting workers get a limited set of services.

And I'll agree that pandering to immigrant groups by teaching schools in Spanish and shit like that is absurd. They come over, they learn English, like every generation of immigrants to this country before them. Sounds reasonable, no?

But really, as far as issues we ought to worry about, this is pretty trivial. There's much bigger fish to fry in the sea.


The government has always cared more about corportations than citizens. This isn't anything new.

And corporate lobbyist would squash this and so it will never happen. They'll refuse to pay a fair living wage ever. And if they did, prices on everything will go up, and that living wage will still not be enough.

Beyond that, Americans have become a lazy, spoiled, infantilized lot. Americans are not going to work the shit jobs. They're not going to be agricultural workers, they're not going to clean toilets, they're not going to do anything like that because TV is teaching them that they can be stars for doing nothing but being whiny lazy asses if only they can get into the next reality TV show.

There is no national work ethic anymore. And this point is illustrated by the first post--again, the fact that we have to import doctors from abroad suggests that we're not creating enough quality doctors from within our borders.

And probably the thing we need most is an infusion of hard working people who maybe have some shot of passing that work ethic on to their children (of course that is being subverted by leftist lobbyists trying to convince immigrants that, like all Americans, they're entitled to things without working for them, and, again, pop culture rotting the brains of their children).


You don't see why I "think it's cool"?
Do you see where I even MENTIONED the wealthy not fufliling thier obligations? Before you accuse me of saying anything, make sure I actually said it first.

Free health care (as you propose) equals shitty healthcare. Period.

And you mentioned the number of American citizens on the welfare roll... Well, you said it best. They are AMERICAN CITIZENS. Illegal immigrants receiving welfare are NOT CITIZENS and do not have the right to American welfare!



That sums it up... You should've stopped right there. Good points.


Cancer specialists at UCLA: Highly educated, high-IQ professionals (probably from Asia or Europe). Mexican illegal aliens: uneducated, taxpayer-subsidized slave labor for Corporate "America" - exploiters of health care, education, and other social services for themselves and their anchor babies.

Nice try at obfuscation though, Mr. Cosgrove.


Illegal immigrants are huge drain on the budget. THe huge influx of illegals is another reason why the blue collar wage has actually decreased in real dollar terms in the last three to four years...and is largely identical to the average wage of a blue collar worker in 1973.

think about it.


[quote]rg73 wrote:
Majin wrote:
Apparently our government cares more about the companies who hire illegal immigrants.

The government has always cared more about corportations than citizens. This isn't anything new.

I/m with you here.

Americans are not going to work the shit jobs. They're not going to be agricultural workers, they're not going to clean toilets, they're not going to do anything like that because TV is teaching them that they can be stars for doing nothing but being whiny lazy asses if only they can get into the next reality TV show.

There is no national work ethic anymore.

Wrong. I don't know anyone that doesn't work hard. I work hard. One of my kids blasted thru High School in 3 years, and at 23 is up for his 4th promotion at Dish Network. His younger brother works for me during the week, and as I type this is at his second job, washing dishes at a restaurant for 7.50 / hr.

The problem is that there are few entry level jobs for regular guys. When I was young, you could be a roofer or a carpenter, or take any of a number of entry level factory jobs. Now, anything that would have gone to a "kid just starting out" is done by a 30 yr old illegal. The factories are gone.

Not everyone is cut out to be a doctor or engineer. The imigration problem exists because:

The gov doesn't enforce laws against hiring illegals. They don't want to secure the borders. Con Agra and Archer Daniels Midland, among many many others fund their campaigns, and love the cheap labor.

Our gov has been bought and paid for. Whenever I see news footage of one of those sinkholes opening up and swallowing a house, I wish there was a giant one under DC. Rat Bastards.

This shit will coem home to roost in the fall. Watch congress change hands, and then watch nothing else change. Demican or Republicrats, makes no difference.


There's a good reason companies are hiring illegals - because they can pay them LESS then regular wages and expect the same output. It's a free ride for them and it's illegal to pay such low wages.

If companies are forced to pay full wages to EVERYONE they hire then any incentive to hire illegals over americans will become non-existant as everyone would compete on equal ground. Right now it's unfair for both - americans who get passed in favor of illegals working for slave wages neither for the illegals who are being cheated out of better pay. Just because nobody has the balls to do it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

As for the work ethic... First let's not group immigrants and illegals. Second, we, as a society, live in better conditions and expect to get paid a certain minimum, what's wrong with that? Just because some people are willing to rent a 2bdr appartment for 3 families and put up with living like that doesn't mean they're better. There are shitloads of lazy-ass americans but America is also known for vast numbers of tireless workaholics, not just slobs on TV. Give them equal opportunity and less people will be watching the reality shows.


Why don't the "pay a living wage" people get it?

Say Strawberry Corp. currently pays $4.00 an hour to illegals. Each illegal produces 1 box of strawberries per hour. Cost of production(all other factors hypothetically not considered)= $4.00. They sell said box of product for, say, $6.00. They make a profit of $2.00 per box.

Now if they raise their wages to $8.00 per hour and hire citizens to do the work. In order to make the same $2.00 profit, they would now have to sell their product for $10.00/box. That's not even factoring in the added employer cost of hiring citizens. It also doesn't factor that if they can get away with selling the product for $10.00/box, they would still use illegal labor(if they could get away with it) and make $6.00/box in profit. That's just the nature of our corporate run America. See gas prices for a rough analogy.

It's really very simple. If the companies pay more, we pay more. Now that living wage isn't so livable anymore. And the cycle repeats.


That is an asinine economic argument that I've heard many times, and it hasn't gotten less asinine.

Why? Because the exact same argument was used and can be used to support anything, down to and including... slavery.

It took us thousands of years to abolish slavery exactly because of people making the same argument as you are making now.

Think about that for a moment.


I thought AC's quote meant there were some groups that did not want people from other countries entering the US. I thought to myself, does that everyone in the US has to leave except the Native American Indians ?


There is no room for them with all the illegal immigrants already here. Not only do we have plenty of illegal immigrants but some are islamic fundamentalists who publicly support terrorism attacks on the UK. Great huh !


That's a ridiculous comment. Not every damn thing revolvess around paying illegal wages. And on the things that do they can still make a smaller profit from using normal wages. Nobody is going to all of a sudden raise their prices by 20% or so knowing that they still can make a profit with a smaller price hike - they'll loose all their customers if they will.

And again, it's not about this being favorable to all sides from day one, but it's something beneficial that needs to be done. If someone's profit relies mostly on paying illegaly small wages then they deserve to go out of business or be bought by competition.


It's all Justin Timberlakes fault.
That motherfucker and his jedi-pop culture mind tricks.


I think it's about time for a giant meteor to hit the Earth again so we can start from scratch.