Strength vs. Size

[quote]DPH wrote:
the iron cross and military press use mostly different muscles…not a very good example.[/quote]

Have to agree there. Plus its static holding versus quick lifting.

The press was a slow lift. The gymnasts doing the iron cross were smaller in size and weighted a lot less then the guys pressing temendous amount of weight. You cant really compare limit strength with pound for pound strength. A 250 pound powerlifter who benches 400 lbs wont be able to perform a planch (A pushups position where your legs are elevated) because he weighs significantly more then the gymnasts while he is still much stronger the the gymnast who can probably bench 250 at 140 lbs. Pavel touches up on this in his books and Dragon Door

[quote]pragmatist wrote:
I think the term “functional strength” should be interpreted in a sports-specific fashion, i.e. you could gain strength that wasn’t really “functional” for the sport you’re involved in.[/quote]

I agree…but since the term ‘functional strength’ has been ruined, it would be more clear if everyone used the term ‘sport-specific strength’.

[quote]DPH wrote:
pragmatist wrote:
I think the term “functional strength” should be interpreted in a sports-specific fashion, i.e. you could gain strength that wasn’t really “functional” for the sport you’re involved in.

I agree…but since the term ‘functional strength’ has been ruined, it would be more clear if everyone used the term ‘sport-specific strength’.[/quote]

Agreed. “Functional strength” has been pimped by every nerd who tries to explain away their lack of progress in the gym…due to the fact that they can toss a kettleball around.

“Sport specific strength” gets right to the point.

There’s a way bigger chance that the guy who can do the planche will bench 400lbs than a guy who benches 400lbs to do the planche though.

Hmm that depends on the gymnast, a 130 lbs gymnast who can do a planch it is doubtfull for considering the fact that gymnasts rarely if never bench press. But a gymnasts who weight 170 lbs (There is some of them around) it is a possibility however because he weighs so much when he does the planch it takes him more strength (More recruitment in his msucle fibers) to do the planch that is why he might be able to bench 400.

Now a powerlifter who has to maintaine a certain weight class lets say around 150 160 and benches a lot cane taught to do the planch as well (the reason he might not be able to do it right away is because the planch takes more balance to do something a powerlifter doesnt practice)

I totaly agree about the functional strength training being tossed around too much though. I use to have the same trail of thinking when I did gymnastics I thought strictly body weight was the way to go then I quit and kept up with my conditioning but added powerlifting to my routines. I experienced higher ability to jump and sprint, easier to do gymnastic holds ( nothing like the victorian cross or anything just the basics like planch and front lever, I was a tumbler not an allaround).

And then it also depends on what your goals are, there are many types of strength some when neglected will decrease some will decrease before you can have one of the other a good example is pound for pound strength and limit strength you might be able to deadlift 700 at 300 lbs but all that extra weight will make it harder for you to do certain things ex pullups and adv bodyweight like planch. Some can argue that you can 200 lbs and still have tremendous pound for pound strength ex. john grimick at 200 lbs could chin himself 7 times with each arm . It possible but will take a lot more work then being 140 lbs and working up to the same thing

[quote]daraz wrote:
There’s a way bigger chance that the guy who can do the planche will bench 400lbs than a guy who benches 400lbs to do the planche though.[/quote]

a friend of mine bench pressed 625 lbs wearing nothing but a t-shirt…he can’t do the planche…but please show me one skinny fucker who can do the planche that can also bench press 625 lbs …there are none…

if my friend decided to train for the planche he would have to lose the mass necessary to bench press 625 lbs…

sports-specific strength my friend …it’s essential to be a top-dog in any given endeavor…

if your goal is to have a world class one rep max squat in the IPF…doing high rep over head squats while riding a skateboard won’t help you for shit…

[quote]DPH wrote:
daraz wrote:
There’s a way bigger chance that the guy who can do the planche will bench 400lbs than a guy who benches 400lbs to do the planche though.

a friend of mine bench pressed 625 lbs wearing nothing but a t-shirt…he can’t do the planche…but please show me one skinny fucker who can do the planche that can also bench press 625 lbs …there are none…

if my friend decided to train for the planche he would have to lose the mass necessary to bench press 625 lbs…

sports-specific strength my friend …it’s essential to be a top-dog in any given endeavor…

if your goal is to have a world class one rep max squat in the IPF…doing high rep over head squats while riding a skateboard won’t help you for shit…[/quote]

Great post!

While there is some “Carry over” with related movements, Hand Stand Push-ups and Standing Barbell Press, for example. There is practically zero carry over between the two movements being discussed.

In addition to that Sports Specific Training (SST) always holds trump! One more reason why when it is your desire to perform one set of high rep Chins (for example) you must train using higher reps!

[quote]DPH wrote:

the iron cross and military press use mostly different muscles…not a very good example.[/quote]

This is the olympic press, not the military press. The former looks more like a standing bench press. Delts are the prime movers, followed by pecs and lats. Sounds like a cross.

[quote]rswa wrote:
Plus its static holding versus quick lifting.

[/quote]

This is the olympic press, not the jerk.

The lifters of the era failed to hold a cross not because the muscles used in the cross were trained with respect to speed-strength but not for strength, but because the lifters were weak with respect to the movement.

[quote]Typhoon wrote:
You cant really compare limit strength with pound for pound strength. [/quote]

You can when the weightlifters are not superheavyweights. If my memory is correct, they were lifters in weight classes. That is to say, they were the men who had the highest ratio in the world between their standing press and their bodyweight.

If my memory betrays me, and these guys were superheavyweights or heavyweights, then you are right, of course, but if they were middleweights, lightweights, flyweights, etcetera, we can definetely compare them to gymnasts.

Remember, this is the cross, not an event in which excess leg mass is multiplied by the length of the lever arm (as it is in the lever, planche, or maltese).