Starting strength is a starting point. Since the OP is not strong by any measure, how the hell is he beyond what a program like starting strength can help?
What harm can be done by getting stronger on the basics?
I also like the “no one every got…” argument. A prolific poster has stated before that a program that top bodybuilders uses now is not what he used to get to where they are today.
Does one have to do the starting strength program with the power squat form? hell no. Get under the bar and squat.
Arnold talked about his big 6. squat, deadlift, bentover row, pull-up, curl, and bench press…uh oh. Where is a 45 degree lean away, mind muscle connection sets with a 4.2 - 0 - 1.1215 tempo facing NE before labor day…
Of course as lacking as the OP is on strength, surely he’ll get stronger doing 25 sets once per week.
Strength is the pillar upon which muscle is built. This may be as unproductive of an argument as creationism v evolution, though.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Starting strength is a starting point. Since the OP is not strong by any measure, how the hell is he beyond what a program like starting strength can help?
What harm can be done by getting stronger on the basics?
[/quote]
The very thing we have gone into with great detail for ten years. We have literally SEEN the guys with shoulder imbalances from avoiding direct shoulder work.
This recent fascination with only “compound” movements doesn’t work very well if your goal is a balanced physique. That is what happens when you try to act like randomly doing “non-specific sports training” does better than making sure you don’t ignore biceps or side delts because someone told you they weren’t that important.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Arnold talked about his big 6. squat, deadlift, bentover row, pull-up, curl, and bench press…uh oh. Where is a 45 degree lean away, mind muscle connection sets with a 4.2 - 0 - 1.1215 tempo facing NE before labor day…
Of course as lacking as the OP is on strength, surely he’ll get stronger doing 25 sets once per week.[/quote]
About this…wtf is a “lean away” and when did Arnold avoid biceps curls or side laterals?
I do believe the advice from many of the people who actually got big and strong is to stop this non-sense of acting like “compound movements” are somehow better than actually focusing on every fucking thing.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Arnold talked about his big 6. squat, deadlift, bentover row, pull-up, curl, and bench press…uh oh. Where is a 45 degree lean away, mind muscle connection sets with a 4.2 - 0 - 1.1215 tempo facing NE before labor day…
Of course as lacking as the OP is on strength, surely he’ll get stronger doing 25 sets once per week.[/quote]
About this…wtf is a “lean away” and when did Arnold avoid biceps curls or side laterals?
I do believe the advice from many of the people who actually got big and strong is to stop this non-sense of acting like “compound movements” are somehow better than actually focusing on every fucking thing.
[/quote]
That part was parody. Arnold was a pretty damned accomplished weightlifter before he became a bodybuilder.
Could you expand on what you mean by focusing on everything?
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Arnold talked about his big 6. squat, deadlift, bentover row, pull-up, curl, and bench press…uh oh. Where is a 45 degree lean away, mind muscle connection sets with a 4.2 - 0 - 1.1215 tempo facing NE before labor day…
Of course as lacking as the OP is on strength, surely he’ll get stronger doing 25 sets once per week.[/quote]
About this…wtf is a “lean away” and when did Arnold avoid biceps curls or side laterals?
I do believe the advice from many of the people who actually got big and strong is to stop this non-sense of acting like “compound movements” are somehow better than actually focusing on every fucking thing.
[/quote]
That part was parody. Arnold was a pretty damned accomplished weightlifter before he became a bodybuilder.
Could you expand on what you mean by focusing on everything? [/quote]
I understood it. I was just making light of it.
Look, if a guy starts lifting to get swole, what needs to change is the idea that working on this is somehow not good enough. They also have to want to be some kind of “pseudo-athlete” who plays no professional sports but spends years working on “fitness” and other concepts that can’t really be quantified so the fact that no progress is really being made is overlookeed.
You want big shoulders? Do some heavy ass overhead presses first in the work out when your energy is highest. Do some side laterals and some bent over flyes or pec deck. That is how you get shoulders that make people comment on them.
Mine used to be small. They aren’t now. I sure as hell did NOT just focus on the big lifts.
If you want lop-sided shoulders, ignore side laterals, shrugs and bent over flyes.
If you want to get big, there are no short cuts. get in the damn gym upwards of 4-5 days a week and work fucking hard for it like everyone else did.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Arnold talked about his big 6. squat, deadlift, bentover row, pull-up, curl, and bench press…uh oh. Where is a 45 degree lean away, mind muscle connection sets with a 4.2 - 0 - 1.1215 tempo facing NE before labor day…
Of course as lacking as the OP is on strength, surely he’ll get stronger doing 25 sets once per week.[/quote]
About this…wtf is a “lean away” and when did Arnold avoid biceps curls or side laterals?
I do believe the advice from many of the people who actually got big and strong is to stop this non-sense of acting like “compound movements” are somehow better than actually focusing on every fucking thing.
[/quote]
That part was parody. Arnold was a pretty damned accomplished weightlifter before he became a bodybuilder.
Could you expand on what you mean by focusing on everything? [/quote]
I understood it. I was just making light of it.
Look, if a guy starts lifting to get swole, what needs to change is the idea that working on this is somehow not good enough. They also have to want to be some kind of “pseudo-athlete” who plays no professional sports but spends years working on “fitness” and other concepts that can’t really be quantified so the fact that no progress is really being made is overlookeed.
You want big shoulders? Do some heavy ass overhead presses first in the work out when your energy is highest. Do some side laterals and some bent over flyes or pec deck. That is how you get shoulders that make people comment on them.
Mine used to be small. They aren’t now. I sure as hell did NOT just focus on the big lifts.
If you want lop-sided shoulders, ignore side laterals, shrugs and bent over flyes.
If you want to get big, there are no short cuts. get in the damn gym upwards of 4-5 days a week and work fucking hard for it like everyone else did.
[/quote]
I think we are on the same page for the most part, about working hard with progressively heavier weights.
I know you can’t just focus on the big lifts, but the numbers the OP posted were not big numbers in big lifts. I do agree wholeheartedly with your point about moving big weights first then onto other things. Why I would encourage him to do a simple program such as starting strength is to rapidly get the numbers up on the big lifts. Not forever, not even for a whole year, but a good three to four months. Adding to those basic few exercises things like lateral raises, rows and a chin variety, curls, an elbow ext movement of choice, face pull. Hell I’d even have him do a hip flexor move like hanging leg raise.
I think shoulder pressing is almost useless
Yes I said it
[quote]zraw wrote:
I think shoulder pressing is almost useless
Yes I said it[/quote]
I’ve felt this way for years, most people get front delt stimulation from flat and incline bench pressing, and the shoulder press hardly hits the middle and rear delt…if even at all.
my shoulder workouts will always be lateral raises at every angle and range for life.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Arnold talked about his big 6. squat, deadlift, bentover row, pull-up, curl, and bench press…uh oh. Where is a 45 degree lean away, mind muscle connection sets with a 4.2 - 0 - 1.1215 tempo facing NE before labor day…
Of course as lacking as the OP is on strength, surely he’ll get stronger doing 25 sets once per week.[/quote]
About this…wtf is a “lean away” and when did Arnold avoid biceps curls or side laterals?
I do believe the advice from many of the people who actually got big and strong is to stop this non-sense of acting like “compound movements” are somehow better than actually focusing on every fucking thing.
[/quote]
That part was parody. Arnold was a pretty damned accomplished weightlifter before he became a bodybuilder.
Could you expand on what you mean by focusing on everything? [/quote]
I understood it. I was just making light of it.
Look, if a guy starts lifting to get swole, what needs to change is the idea that working on this is somehow not good enough. They also have to want to be some kind of “pseudo-athlete” who plays no professional sports but spends years working on “fitness” and other concepts that can’t really be quantified so the fact that no progress is really being made is overlookeed.
You want big shoulders? Do some heavy ass overhead presses first in the work out when your energy is highest. Do some side laterals and some bent over flyes or pec deck. That is how you get shoulders that make people comment on them.
Mine used to be small. They aren’t now. I sure as hell did NOT just focus on the big lifts.
If you want lop-sided shoulders, ignore side laterals, shrugs and bent over flyes.
If you want to get big, there are no short cuts. get in the damn gym upwards of 4-5 days a week and work fucking hard for it like everyone else did.
[/quote]
I think we are on the same page for the most part, about working hard with progressively heavier weights.
I know you can’t just focus on the big lifts, but the numbers the OP posted were not big numbers in big lifts. I do agree wholeheartedly with your point about moving big weights first then onto other things. Why I would encourage him to do a simple program such as starting strength is to rapidly get the numbers up on the big lifts. Not forever, not even for a whole year, but a good three to four months. Adding to those basic few exercises things like lateral raises, rows and a chin variety, curls, an elbow ext movement of choice, face pull. Hell I’d even have him do a hip flexor move like hanging leg raise.
[/quote]
in my opinion a push/pull/legs variation would be optimal, or since big legs are not a big concern for his aesthetic goals push/pull/OFF/push/pull/legs/off or chest/back/arms, legs, shoulders, OFF chest/back/arms, OFF, OFF.
That way he can workout every bodypart alteast twice a week, with the exception of legs and still focus on some isolation work for the shoulders and arms or whatever.
although I also don’t know why he needs to work out multiple times a week I know that I as a beginner developed a solid foundation of size and strength working out every bodypart once a week. Then again made gains working out twice a week.
I mean it’s not like he cannot get stronger working out every body part once a week. If he isn’t it’s because of some other factor contributing to a lack of proper recovery like not enough food, sleep, hormonal issues or not knowing how to build a decent plan.
[quote]zraw wrote:
I think shoulder pressing is almost useless
Yes I said it[/quote]
i agree, never thought i got too much out of that movement. If you are doing Incline barbell and various other pressing movements you’ll get front delt stimulation, focusing on side lateral and rear delts is more important for building great shoulders…but now we’re off topic…
I can’t believe people are still telling the OP to do starting strength and crap.
sesumatse, what are your training stats? What have you accomplished that is in any way relevant to this discussion? Genuinely curious.
[quote]sesumatse wrote:
Starting strength allows the trainee to move heavier weights past their weak sticking point and improve their explosiveness. Move more weight faster for more reps and grow more!
Op wants to gain 10lbs and get leaner so the rest intervals should be kept to a minimum and reps moderate to high after he gains a lil strength to start out with.
The Russians have been destroying us in lifting for years and speed work and starting strength was pioneered by them. Im not saying if all u do is that, u will hypertrophy big time, saying that it translates into more reps done during your bodybuilding workouts and its alot of fun!
Dave Tate, a powerlifter who is probably stronger than any of us here posting, specifically said that bodybuilders who neglect speed work and starting strength are losing out on gains.
Why is a powerlifters advice relevant? Cause getting strong first works, at least thats what Ronnie Coleman said and he has stated repeatedly that he started in his career focusing on strength.
Mixing the two approaches is the 1-6 program which is another eastern training philosophy that works.[/quote]
for fuck sake stop talking about russians and glen pendaly or anyother irelevant person to bodybuilding you brought up in this thread. OP’s goal is to be a fitness model which means moderate levels of muscle with a low bodyfat percentage. glen pendaly is a great strength coach but i fail to see why he is being brought up in a thread about fitness models.
Op wants to gain ten or more pounds of muscle and improve his body composition and strength training will help him do that, what about that guy Ronnie Coleman that said strength training first to gain muscle works.
OP asked about strength or size first and Im citing a relevant bodybuilders own path to gaining muscle, so its relevant.
Strength training is relevant to bodybuilding, find me a title holding bodybuilder that never worried about increasing his weights…
Its great to be an athlete that enjoys bodybuilding and setting new PRs, and new training methods are helpful, ESPECIALLY varying training speeds and resistance curves that get muscles to Grow!
Why would someone who only wants to gain like 10lbs spend an awful lot
Of time getting strong when it isnt even necessary? I have never seen fitness guys
benching 4 pps. In other words: why prepare someone to cycle
the tour de France when he wants to cycle to school?
Why would someone who only wants to gain like 10lbs spend an awful lot
Of time getting strong when it isnt even necessary? I have never seen fitness guys
benching 4 pps. In other words: why prepare someone to cycle
the tour de France when he wants to cycle to school?
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
[quote]zraw wrote:
I think shoulder pressing is almost useless
Yes I said it[/quote]
I’ve felt this way for years, most people get front delt stimulation from flat and incline bench pressing, and the shoulder press hardly hits the middle and rear delt…if even at all.
my shoulder workouts will always be lateral raises at every angle and range for life.[/quote]
I totally agree with this
[quote]sesumatse wrote:
Lets look at Bev Francis, former Ms Olympia runner up and 500 lb female deadlifter, she is qualified…Frank Zane,tiny waisted Mr.O 79, he deadlifted too, the list goes on…Hmm physiology 101 here, the cns tells muscles to contract right, deadlifts work the cns and spine extremely well, which increases the efficiency of neural signaling to ALL muscles the trainee works because all nerves travel thru the spine.
As w posted, its not like the op is going to suddenly gain 50 lbs of muscle in places he didnt want and b helpless as to lose it. This guy is starting from scratch, and wants to gain muscle.
Enhancing the cns thru deadlifts WILL result in other muscles he works responding faster because he has beefed up his nervous system, and the large compound movements will enhance his hormonal output also.This will help him stay lean and accelerate the results he gets from his area specific training he performs.
Go tell Glenn Pendlay the hormonal output from exercise is insignificant and his system of training doesnt work even though hes among the best at training guys who get drafted into the NFL. Ya his post graduate work in endocrinology didnt teach him anything about how to train for success llol!
Go tell Coach Poliquin his 6-12-25 lactic acid training for fat loss program doesnt work and deadlifts and squats wont enhance the efficiency of the CNS and that neural signaling to the muscles is also insignificant,lol.
Go tell coach Thibs that him putting a neural potentiating exercise first in his star complexes is a total waste of time and hasnt helped anyone, again llol.
In case ur not following, after he beefs up his nervous and endocrine system by increasing compound movements that work the spine, he will be able to handle more weights in the specific exercises that build the exact areas he wants to focus on and have more anabolic hormones in his body resulting in better body composition or at least thats what Arnold and that dumass nobody Charles Poliquin say.
Apparently most dont agree with Pendlay, Poliquin, and Thibs,as they are so much more qualified.
[/quote]
you have clearly done a lot of READING about training…
XXXXXXXX
Ya just cant get the athlete outa me I guess, love to train and set new PRs and bodybuild as well, they are not mutually exclusive.
25yrs of training and READING and still lovin every minute of it, and stand by my reccomendation to get stronger to accelerate gains from bodybuilding training.
Rdogg, if you dont want to strength train, keeping your reps between6-12 and lowering your rest intervals will help you gain some muscle and conditioning. Strength training will solidify and strengthen that muscle and make it perform more work later, either is good and will help you, its not as complicated as this thread may seem.
Now to my eggs and preworkout, cheers!
since when did working on strength imply a certain rep range? bodybuilding routines do include strength training just usually at higher rep ranges.
what most of us are saying is, to do a strict powerlifting program like SS, in which hypertrophy in the right places is not the main goal of the program and would be less than optimal for an aesthetic look.