Strength No Size!!

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]SheekLouche wrote:
you need to do more reps with the same high weight. size does not always equate strength. that is not to say drop the weight to some ridicoulusly low wieght and go “high reps,” but keep the range beteen 15-20. Try rest-pause training. For example, go all out to failure at 225 lbs. (Get at least 10 reps). Rest for about 10 - 15 seconds, then bang out a few more, rest, then a few more. That is all it really takes. Next week, up the weight by 5 lbs. holler[/quote]

I disagree with everything you just wrote and wonder what makes you think anyone needs to lift a weight 20 times to see results in bodybuilding. I have never had my reps that high on anything aside from some leg movements. Why do you believe this, and further, why are you trying to get someone to avoid going up in the weight used? Who do you know who has 20" arms from lifting “lighter weight” for high reps?

22

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I disagree with everything you just wrote and wonder what makes you think anyone needs to lift a weight 20 times to see results in bodybuilding. I have never had my reps that high on anything aside from some leg movements. Why do you believe this, and further, why are you trying to get someone to avoid going up in the weight used? Who do you know who has 20" arms from lifting “lighter weight” for high reps?
[/quote]

Not to hijack the thread to badly but I would be interested in the esteemed Prof giving his opinion of my situation. (My stats are just a few posts up in the thread). I think what Axel said has alot of merit but man last time I tried to get down that far my numbers went in the tank.

23

[quote]lothos wrote:
Not to hijack the thread to badly but I would be interested in the esteemed Prof giving his opinion of my situation. (My stats are just a few posts up in the thread). I think what Axel said has alot of merit but man last time I tried to get down that far my numbers went in the tank.[/quote]

I agree with Axel. 20% is pushing it. That doesn’t make you a “fat ass”, it just means you are well on your way to hitting that status if you don’t put the breaks on. I would try to at least get your bf% down to about 15%. Also, use your strength as an indication of how fast you should be going when dieting. If your strength drops THAT much, it means you are losing too quick. I use my strength levels as a guage of progress. If I drop 10lbs and my strength stays the same, that tell me that my potential muscle lost is very small. I would not try to increase reps to 15-20.

I have never understood why some people on this site completely seperate strength and size gains as if they are two completely different entities. I personally don’t believe that.

One more thing, some body fat testing methods are slightly off by as much as 3%. Don’t go so much by the number but rather how you look. Who cares if the tester reads 20% if you look decent? I think too many get caught up in specific numbers. Early on, this can screw up your progress if you start dieting every time you hit a number regardless of how you look.

24

holy crap I did not expect so many replies! Thanks a lot everyone, what a cool freakin’ site. There are a couple of important facts I should have mentioned:

  1. I am a personal trainer (CPTN cert) which specializes in weight training. (meaning I have a pretty good idea how to put a workout together)

  2. I work at a supplement store and have a decent supplement and nutritional knowledge.

  3. I’m 29, 6’, and percent bodyfat (hard to get an accurate one), I would say 15% or so. I get 8hours sleep a night… I look like an ecto/meso. (more ectomorph, thin wrists, shoulders)

I beleive my problem is low testosterone and/or high estrogen, I’ve never taken any roids. What advice do y’all have for upping test and dropping est?

I am currently:
-getting 30 grams of protein every 2-3 hours while awake (mostly whey, but I’m upping my meat incase it helps) don’t worry I’m getting decent carbs, on the lower side though. I just read massive eating last night, and am doing calculations after this post…
-taking ZMA at night
-multi, e, a, C in the morning.
-training very intense, but shorter for a better test spike and recovery
-upping my indole laden vegitables to cut my estrogen

Thanks for the replies, but as to test/est what else can I do? Naps are out of the question, I have to work. Is tribulus worth it? Maca? (Assuming I’m going to stay natural)

Oh, and axle, I think your idea is what I’m going to try and achieve right now, dropping to 10% bodyfat will at least let me show what I have now, and again, a better test/est balance would help there, wouldn’t it?

And a small defence, wasted 14 years? No freakin’ way. Imagine what a swizzle stick I’d be if I had not trained this hard and this long?

25

[quote]mcbain wrote:
I’ve been training off and on (mainly on) for the last 14 years. I’m freakin’ strong for my size (deadlift 315 for reps, bench 225 for reps etc. etc.), which is not much. Plus, I’m kinda skinny/fat. I figure I’ve got low testosterone, and my protein intake might not have been high enough. I up my protein (150-200g, I weigh 175), my rep range (8-15), I vary my training intensity and volume, I use other supplements (zma and others but not pro-hormones). What the hell am I doing wrong? (or more useful to me, since I’m not gonna quit, what else can I do?) Am I missing something?

estro-boy[/quote]

Hmmm…Why is your name estro-boy???

ANYWAY, without your training program(s) - who knows what might be going on there. But as far as diet goes, you need a minimum of 1g/lb of protein with 1.5g/lb being the target. I’d shoot 270g of protein. The other problem you may have is your rep range. If you’re skinny/fat, more than likely you won’t build muscle with reps over 8-10. Only Mesomorphs can really build with high reps (like many pro bodybuilders). I’d say do the majority of your lifts in the 5-8 rep range occasionally dipping into the 3 rep range and 10 rep range at each end of the spectrum.

I wasn’t ever fat but I was a skinny/no definition guy for years when I was younger. I’ve never gained an ounce of muscle going over 10 reps. And even 10 is kind of worthless. 3-8 is where I prefer.

26

“1. I am a personal trainer (CPTN cert) which specializes in weight training. (meaning I have a pretty good idea how to put a workout together)”

“2. I work at a supplement store and have a decent supplement and nutritional knowledge.”

…well, you might want to reconsider this. If after 14 years I was only gettin 225, I’d have to rethink my traning style.

As to whoever said that “he is looking for size not strenght,” kindly pull your head out of your ass. If you try to build size without strenght, you will usually fail.

And why some here are saying to do 8-20 reps is beyond me. How many times has it been said here that 3x10 and 10x3 both equal 30. In the 10x3 situation, you are using much more weight, and much more tension. I realize not everyone can do 10x3 but there is always 6x4, 5x5, 8x3, etc.

If you can bench 225, your chest will reflect that. Bench 300 and your chest will be bigger. Bench 400 and your chest will be bigger yet. YES, I realize there are smaller, stong guys, but this is usually because of Weight Class restrictions. The legs of a 500lb Squatter are usually bigger than a 250lb squatter.

This reply may seem a bit harsh, but if I hear one more guy, who is doing high reps with pansy weight, complain that he can’t get big, I think I’ll scream.

27

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Who do you know who has 20" arms from lifting “lighter weight” for high reps?
[/quote]

Exactly. Big arms require big weights. Triceps make up most of the upper arm. Triceps respond to max poundage. Max poundages good. Look at a WSM contest to see some huge arms…these guys are pulling Buses and carrying 300lb stones, NOT doing Concentration curls with 30lb dumbells for 20 reps.

28

[quote]mcbain wrote:
I’ve been training off and on (mainly on) for the last 14 years. I’m freakin’ strong for my size (deadlift 315 for reps, bench 225 for reps etc. etc.), which is not much. Plus, I’m kinda skinny/fat. I figure I’ve got low testosterone, and my protein intake might not have been high enough. I up my protein (150-200g, I weigh 175), my rep range (8-15), I vary my training intensity and volume, I use other supplements (zma and others but not pro-hormones). What the hell am I doing wrong? (or more useful to me, since I’m not gonna quit, what else can I do?) Am I missing something?

estro-boy[/quote]

You definatley need to increase your weights and decrease your reps. I personally do 12/10/8 to failure with the first 12 being more or less a warm-up (able to do maybe 14 or 15 reps). Also, you might want to incorporate a 15-20 minute cardio routine before you lift to get the blood pumpimg through your muscles.

This site has lots to offer as far as strength training that you may want to look into.

Also, I’m a personal fan of creatine, as of late, and recommend using it for your own selfish needs of increasing strength and mass. As far as protein, at 175 lbs I would take no more in than 250 grams of protein max per day. Save your kidneys. You might need them one day.

If you’re not following up with a post-workout drink you should do so. I’ve been using Surge now for only 2 weeks and my recovery time has decreased dramatically.

Please, please pay attention to what you eat, how you eat it, and when you it! Stay away from simple carbs, and start eating brown rice, etc…, and complex carbs with your protein. Take in a good source of low-carb/high protein right before you hit the sack!

As far as sleep goes… you’re looking good. Remeber to grow you have to give your muscles a break every 2-3 days. Rest is an important factor when it comes to gaining mass and strength.

Oh yea… drink lots of water if you’re going to hit da creatine. I’m 5’ 10 1/2 inches, 217 lbs, 18 % BF, and I drink around 2 gallons of water a day. If your pissing to much, cut back on initial consumption and spread it through-out the day!!! If you drink water too fast it just comes right back out an hour later. Same with protein. If you take in too much protein too quick, you’ll piss that out too.

Good luck, listen to Prof X, NateN, and some of these other ppl around here. They know what the’re talking about. And start reading these wonderful articles.

29

One thing is if you truly think your hormones are to blame get them checked! Sounds like an excuse for results you know are less then great for 14 years of training

give us a sample program and the basic macro’s and total cal’s your taking in at the very least so we can maybe spot what is the root of your problem.

30

You could be training with the wrong intensity /volume as described above. I would suggest going to a lower rep program and something like 5 x 5, but start fairly easy and follow either a straight linear increase (e.g. 5 pounds a session increase) or wave method easy, med, hard, med etc.

31

[quote]mcbain wrote:
holy crap I did not expect so many replies! Thanks a lot everyone, what a cool freakin’ site. There are a couple of important facts I should have mentioned:

  1. I am a personal trainer (CPTN cert) which specializes in weight training. (meaning I have a pretty good idea how to put a workout together)

  2. I work at a supplement store and have a decent supplement and nutritional knowledge. [/quote]

These people scare me. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren’t the norm.

[quote]3. I’m 29, 6’, and percent bodyfat (hard to get an accurate one), I would say 15% or so. I get 8 hours sleep a night… I look like an ecto/meso. (more ectomorph, thin wrists, shoulders)

I beleive my problem is low testosterone and/or high estrogen, I’ve never taken any roids. What advice do y’all have for upping test and dropping est? [/quote]

IF you are considering supplements I think you need to get on a more stable diet plan. You might be surprised how much it will correct itself when your body is getting what it needs.

Sounds like you are relying a bit too much on shakes. The words mostly whey also scare me. I hope there isn’t a big tub of Soy nearby. If you look at any stereotypical caveman picture they are tough looking son-of-a-bitches (old school T-man in-the-raw) and the stereotypical caveman hunted and chowed on raw meat. The message? MORE (lean) MEAT.

Arguably the best thing you’ve done for training in 14 years.

Pick up Nutrient Timing by John Ivy & Robert Portman. Although, most of the principles are covered by JB its a great read. Usually can be read in 1-2 sittings (esp if you are following massive eating).

[quote]

And a small defence, wasted 14 years? No freakin’ way. Imagine what a swizzle stick I’d be if I had not trained this hard and this long? [/quote]

Imagine how you would look now if you had found this site 14 years ago. :slight_smile:

TriDub

32

And…

The only time your muscles should be repping that high is infront of a Hustler mag.

33

[quote]Original_Demon wrote:
As far as protein, at 175 lbs I would take no more in than 250 grams of protein max per day. Save your kidneys. You might need them one day.
[/quote]
Here we go spreading BS again. Save your kidneys??? Is it any wonder that this LIE doesn’t die??? Geez…and from someone on this site. Unbelievable! I’m very disappointed.

34

I believe that we should just all take the lesson and just try to ignore taking nutritional/training advice from original-demon. His lack of knowledge and even moreso lack of ability to accept his lack of knowledge can be seen at his “gaining momentum” thread. Nuff said.

35

[quote]TwistedLocal wrote:
I believe that we should just all take the lesson and just try to ignore taking nutritional/training advice from original-demon. His lack of knowledge and even moreso lack of ability to accept his lack of knowledge can be seen at his “gaining momentum” thread. Nuff said.[/quote]

What the fuck is the matter with you!!! Quit harrasing me!!! Quit posting BS on other ppls threads because they don’t give a shit asshole!!!

36

[quote]TwistedLocal wrote:
I believe that we should just all take the lesson and just try to ignore taking nutritional/training advice from original-demon. His lack of knowledge and even moreso lack of ability to accept his lack of knowledge can be seen at his “gaining momentum” thread. Nuff said.[/quote]

Agreed.

37

How about just a training log and food log so you and us both can tell what you are or are not doing?

All this rest/pause, high rep, dietary mumbo jumbo means dick if we don’t know what you’ve been doing that doesn’t work.

My personal vote is that he’s been on instinctual eating and training.

38

OK OK OK. So my ego is in check, thank you, and just to prove it, here are my conclusions from posting this thread.

  1. I haven’t been training for 14 years. I sat down and did the math, and it’s more like 7. Off and on was more like “off”. It’s funny how my ego mind can change things, sorry about that.

  2. Garrett W. - Your 2 cents is on the money. I have almost always eaten instinctually, and most of the time train (somewhat) instinctually. Also, I have started a diet log (now that I’m counting calories) thanks.

  3. “You’re prolly not eating enough to facilitate strength and size gains, of which you still need both. Like I said, with numbers like that, you ain’t gonna be very big. - new damage” Absolutely right, and I have a bitch of a time eating over 175 grams of protein a day. Massive eating opened my eyes… I’ve been eating about half of my suggested calories. (dammit) But better to know than not know.

  4. getting hormones checked - could be an excuse for lousy gaines -JNeves. Allright J, point taken. No excuses. But I would not be shocked if I had low test. That being said, first I will correct my diet and training and give it a couple of months, if I’m still thinking low test, I’ll get it checked with my doctor. NO EXCUSES.

Thanks Trigwu and Prof X for your no nonsense replies. And everyone else. My ego in check, I’ve got a MAD back and shoulder day to rest up for tomorrow, it’s time to make some much awaited gains. dammit.

TWO LAST QUESTIONS THOUGH:

  1. how much protein is safe for the kidneys? I thought too much protein was hard on them? Please can someone clarify? Anyone have references?

  2. ok, which rep range? I have been training with this in mind:
    1-6 strength and power
    7-12 hypertrophy
    12 and up - endurance
    Since I was not making gains at 6-10 (my favorite range) I was upping it to 8-15. What gives? I’m hearing 3?!

Thanks again, you guys, and this site, ROCK.

McBain (no longer estro-boy - now undereating-boy)

39

[quote]mcbain wrote:
OK OK OK. So my ego is in check, thank you, and just to prove it, here are my conclusions from posting this thread.

  1. I haven’t been training for 14 years. I sat down and did the math, and it’s more like 7. Off and on was more like “off”. It’s funny how my ego mind can change things, sorry about that.

  2. Garrett W. - Your 2 cents is on the money. I have almost always eaten instinctually, and most of the time train (somewhat) instinctually. Also, I have started a diet log (now that I’m counting calories) thanks.

  3. “You’re prolly not eating enough to facilitate strength and size gains, of which you still need both. Like I said, with numbers like that, you ain’t gonna be very big. - new damage” Absolutely right, and I have a bitch of a time eating over 175 grams of protein a day. Massive eating opened my eyes… I’ve been eating about half of my suggested calories. (dammit) But better to know than not know.

  4. getting hormones checked - could be an excuse for lousy gaines -JNeves. Allright J, point taken. No excuses. But I would not be shocked if I had low test. That being said, first I will correct my diet and training and give it a couple of months, if I’m still thinking low test, I’ll get it checked with my doctor. NO EXCUSES.

Thanks Trigwu and Prof X for your no nonsense replies. And everyone else. My ego in check, I’ve got a MAD back and shoulder day to rest up for tomorrow, it’s time to make some much awaited gains. dammit.

TWO LAST QUESTIONS THOUGH:

  1. how much protein is safe for the kidneys? I thought too much protein was hard on them? Please can someone clarify? Anyone have references?

  2. ok, which rep range? I have been training with this in mind:
    1-6 strength and power
    7-12 hypertrophy
    12 and up - endurance
    Since I was not making gains at 6-10 (my favorite range) I was upping it to 8-15. What gives? I’m hearing 3?!

Thanks again, you guys, and this site, ROCK.

McBain (no longer estro-boy - now undereating-boy)[/quote]

I like it.

As far as protein is concerned John Berardi has a great article. I believe it is something along the lines of “letters home” or “dear mom”. Either way, if you keep up with JB’s work you will eventually run into the article.

My training strategies have always been to find one coach and follow all his principles for a period of time. Massive Eating is a great program for gains, without a doubt, you will get bigger.

Keep us posted. Glad you took it as constructive criticism.

You might even take a 3 day eating log and post it for comments.

40

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I disagree with everything you just wrote and wonder what makes you think anyone needs to lift a weight 20 times to see results in bodybuilding. I have never had my reps that high on anything aside from some leg movements. Why do you believe this, and further, why are you trying to get someone to avoid going up in the weight used? Who do you know who has 20" arms from lifting “lighter weight” for high reps?
[/quote]

Interestingly enough, there is in fact a prominent (in the steroid forum anyway) member of this site promoting just this idea. Now, I agree with Prof X and others who promote lifting heavy, but it’s interesting to look at this guy’s opinion. Here’s a quote by Prisoner #22 from another thread:

[quote]Prisoner #22 wrote:
YOU NEVER HAVE TO LIFT A SINGLE HEAVY WEIGHT IN ORDER TO GET BIG.
Yes all the pictures they show you in the magazines of bodybuilders lifting heavy weight - and listing what they do for their workouts, This is all a sham! Pictures of Arnold training heavy e.t.c. All done because a camera was present. In real life most successfull bodybuilders and keep the weight very light. A rep range of 10-20 reps using perfect form and getting a great burn, will not only creat a bigger pump, more hypertrophy of the muscle, and cardiovascular health, It will also reduce the risk of joint and tendon injuries giving you greater longevity and decreasing the time you spend sitting at home unable to do a bench workout or a squat workout because your knee or shoulder is sore. Yes power training has its merits, and I don’t think it should be shelved altogether, however, the focus should be on building the body, not tearing it apart due to overload.
[/quote]

Normally I would dismiss such talk, but clearly P22 has a good bit of bodybuilding experience.

Take a look at the thread and tell me what you guy’s think. http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=585826&pageNo=0

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JMB