T Nation

Strength-endurance (lactic acid training?)

Yo
Whats the best regimen to work on the strength endurance of my core/ compound movements stabilisers?

  1. pause at the bottom five seconds for each lift, work all lifts everyday of the week with small weights (mell siff approach)
  2. superman sets - I somehow feel those will make me not use my stabilizers somehow.
  3. westside lactic training - I’ll be glad to hear more about it cause I have know clue
  4. isolation isometric holds (plank, superman, squat etc)

Thanks

Lior

good subject let me give you my thoughts on the subject…this is what i have found to be true about latic acid threshold based on athletes i train and based on members of our powerlifting team…

1…the main purpouse of la training for athletes is to prepare there bodys to BE ABLE TO TRAIN WITH WEIGHTS IN THE IN-SEASON PERIOD WITHOUT IF EFFECTING ONFEILD PERFORMANCE THIS MUST BE THE #1 JOB OF THE STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING STAFF…and let me tell you why…lets take baseball for example the s&c staff has about 5 months with the team he gets them stonger get them better conditioned gets them well above the la threshold to play ball goes beyond the call of duty and thats great…then they get back from christmas break and the baseball coach gets all excited to practice and he practices them 3 times a day cancels weightlifting and has them run all the time…this happens for a month or so up until the onfeild practice and games start and then there is less a need for practice so the coach is like lets have them lift again now …well months have passed and in 2 weeks a trained individual can loose 20% of his strength…so now the athletes go back into the gym and try to do what they were doing months ago they get sore and play poorly …this is why it is very important not to let this happen as a s&c coach or staff…the off season needs to be about latic acid training and strength these must be the main prioritys of a coach…if you do this right you can got down on the volume and train them inseason for maintnace and they will never get sore and will keep there strenght at top levels why other teams are actually getting weaker…

2…the front upperbody has a very good la tolerance…the upper arms, chest,front delts, and abs seem to gain a very god tolerance for la after about 2 weeks of hard training…it is very rare for the athletes i train where i use a conjugate westside joe keen tier style training method with them to get sore in the upper body after about 2 weeks of hard training…and usually me as a powerlifter it is rare i get muscle sore in the upperbody from my training…the only times i get sore in the chest shoulder region is after heavy dynamic eccentric band use wich i dont use with athletes any ways…so there is no reason to train the frontal upperbody for la tolerance…

3…la training needs to involve the whole back side of the body…i have found this region to be the area where la training is nedded for athletes and powerlifters alike…the hams, gluts, upper and lower back, traps and rear delts…these are the primary areas to hit with la training…

4…i primarely will use 4 direct work outs for la training while there are many more these are the 4 i have seen work best for my athletes…

  1. oly lifts hybrids for la training…i use the power clean, hang clean, hang clean in the rack, power clean from the deck, power clean off 4 inch box, powerpulls, rack pulls, power shrug, snatch grip deads off 4 inch box…for these we pick 1 movement per week switching movements each week and do 1 rep every 15-30 seconds until we reach 20 total reps we use any where from 40-70% of our 1 rep max…

  2. dynamic parrellel box squat with the safety squat bar for 15-20 sets of 2 reps with 30sec-1min rest in between sets…we use 50-55% of our ssbar box squat 1 rm…

  3. tire flips…i use a 400 pound tire and my athletes do 1 reps every 10-30 seconds until they reach a total of 20 reps…

  4. heavy sled pulls - we use a v- grip and a lot of weight and pull the sled in a row style while walking backwards for certain time periods anywhere from 2-20 minutes…

i like to use #1 in the offseason in the tier style with a diffirent emphasis each 3 training session a week…if you dont know what the westside tier for training athletes is get joe keens book it is amazing…they also can be done before leg days if you use a diffirent style of training…

#2…of course i use on a squat day and i like to use it 1-2 times a month in the offseason…and for powerlifting i like to use it for 2 weeks before i start a meet squat cycle to get me in shape and ready for my meet cycle…

#3…i use in the offseason on conditioning days for many sports we use it before we run or do speed work…

#4…same thing i use it on conditioning days mosty before speed work…

hope this helps…big martin

Pre and post fatigue methods are, in my opinion, the most simple and efficient. Being relatively simple, it allows you to focus on other important parameters such as reps per sets and rest between sets and so on.
I’m really not familiar about west side lactic training and i’dd like to know more …if you could point me in one direction i’d be in your dept.
thanks.

Interesting feedback. I am familar with westsides training methods for lactate threshold. However, their rest periods (from the video I have seen) are extremely long (2 minutes or more) and allow for too much recovery (oxygenated blood easily returns within their rest intervals). The best way to train for muscular/strength endurance and improving lactate buffering ability is dependent on what you are training for. For example a nordic skier competing in 10k events might perform squats very quickly/explosively for upwards of 5 minutes producing large amounts of lactic acid. This is specific to nordic skiers because they use powerful motions for long periods of time (power endurance). On the other hand a rock climber has to hold himself/herself in certain positions for one minute or more. Perfomrming a pull up very slowly over the course of one minute while engaging their abdmonial muscles will improve the endurance of the muscles (recruiting more type I fibers). It will also create signifigant amounts of lactic acid, unless the athlete has been training this way for a long period of time.
It really depends on what type of athlete you are. Training the body to handle large workloads so that they recover faster during their season is good, however I would only use it for specific athletes or sports. For example, offensive linemen should train more for power and strength/endurance for 30 seconds max. This is because they only use thier bodies on avearge for about 10 seconds per play. They then get around 1 minute recovery. Power, strength and some power endurance are the most important training protocols for these athletes. Working on power and strength endurance during season twice weekly is a good program to follow for linemen.
If you let me know what you are training for, I might be able to better tackle your question.

Best Regards,
Andrew Hooge, CSCS

BigMartin-Let me make sure that I have this straight.
1…the main purpouse of la training for athletes is to prepare there bodys to BE ABLE TO TRAIN WITH WEIGHTS IN THE IN-SEASON PERIOD WITHOUT IF EFFECTING ONFEILD PERFORMANCE THIS MUST BE THE #1 JOB OF THE STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING STAFF
You went on to give the example of the baseball team. Could this situation be avoided by A) Decreasing the amount of weight used B) Not letting them get de-trained (I know that this is sometimes out of our control). Also, the body re-adapts to the workout fairly quickly, they may be sore for a few days, but then they’re over it, and by the time the season really starts, they’re back into shape, so isn’t it mainly the fact that they have lost the strength gains that they have made? From what you’ve said previously, my take on LA training was that it increased work capacity, the body was better able to tolerate and flush lactic acid from its system. So basically, the athletes increase their work capacity, thus enabling them to go heavier, recover faster and therefore get stronger, which transfers over to their on-field performance. Have I got this right, or am I missing something here?

paul - you got the idea…the best idea i can give you is to think about it like this…when a person joins the army the first day the instructors make them do 100 pushups they can barely do them and the next day they are so sore they cant take it, but the instructor forces him to do 150 pushups this day and he forced to rep them out, this continues to happen day in and day out and preety soon the dude can do 1000’s of push ups a day with no ill-effects…this is what we need to do with our athletes in the offseason period…we need to get them able to do am weight training and pm football practice in-season and be able to be as strong in december as they were in spring practice time…this is best done with la training…now la training is obviously just one aspect of the whole training program but it is a important one…and of course a inseason program will be built completely diffirent than a offseason program but it has its place and even a light in-season program can make a untrained athlete sore and effect performance…but s&c programs that follow basic western periodization leave out la training completely wich in my opinion is not a good idea…i love to use the ss-bar latic acid dynamic squat session of 20 sets of 2 with 30 seconds to 1 minute rest with my football players because it acts like a long drive moving down feild you perform a intense skill and then have a short rest period to prepare to do it again it is the ultimate long drive in football…these things will transfer to the ability to be able to use training to better yourself on feild…big martin

Thanks BM! I’l digest all that info you dropped on me.
how’s your fat-loss program going?

andrew: Im training for power and strength, and coming off a four month layoff, my stabilizers are not up to par(and I have a rehabbed back to protect…).

bump fo more thoughts

big martin,

Great Post!

why thanks zeb…its a good topic…bm

bm:

I dont have a sled, planning to do bursts with two green bands tied to me back and forth

may sound dumb but I dont have anything there

How many sessions a week do you thing I should do re: those high volume oly stuff?

Big Martin:
I’m wondering what the fastest way to build up LA tolerance is for body weight exercises? I’m doing a lot of BW calisthenics and man, I can barely get past 30 reps on squats and 20 on pushups because the burn is unbearable. It s frustrating because the strength is there, but I’m so out of shape I can’t use it.

So, is the answer to use the boot camp method, ie force myself to do 100 reps no matter how long it takes? And then increase the demand day by day?

Or is there a better/faster way? Such as doing a max effort in the morning, then one in the afternoon, then one in the pm?

I’ve just begun my training cycle, so whatever you tell me I can put to use immediately and let you know what the results are starting from “near baseline”!

ALso, is there a way to help reduce LA?

Thanks

bump

sonny…i would need to know what your reason for la traning is… so…are you a athlete(what sport?),powerlifter, strong man ect…because this is a very very individual process …like dave tate said in his new article in t-mag this week if your a powerlifter you need ot only get your gpp to a point where it is good for powerlifting…crossing the streams can fuck a lot of shit up…so i would need to know your reason for la training to help you…get back to me…bm

Thanks for the response, BM. I am getting back into shape for pro wrestling, and I have close to no cardio and little strength endurance, so I am focusing on BW calisthenics and doing light weightlifting (building up slowly, so I don’t get overzealous and hurt myself-and I plan on learning Oly lfiting on the side, but that’s a "down the road’ goal ).
My immed priority is: to be able to walk into practice and have great cardio and good strength endurance. High rep calisthenics is going to get me there fast, so that’s why I’m looking to do high reps, at least 500 squats and oh, at least 50 pushups at a BW of 300 lbs.

THanks

glute spanker…i think 2 sessions a week for time 10-20 minutes would be good…remember if your using this to aid your recovery take it easy and go at a light intensity…bm

sonny…i think the best thing you could do is use a tier-body part system with weights this would be 3 days a week of fully body work outs a high volumes with controled %'s waved…and then dedicate 2 maybe 3 days a week to what i call gpp-strongman conditioning…it will get you in shape for wrestling fast…this is what i use with my fighters and college wrestlers i work with and it helps a ton…if you want some more info on it all pm me…bm

BM, I will PM you since I’m still a bit confused.
Congrats on winning poster of the week

SonnyS,
From a pharmacological standpoint, you can use sodium bicarbonate in the form of baking soda to help fight off the effects of the LA. You should be able to get a few more reps on most of your exercises with the addition of a little BS. Too much can irritate the stomach so start at a low level and find your tolerance point. Start with a teaspoon in water taken before your workout and increase the dose from their.

Loopfitt, thanks. I will try that.
Is that the only known chemical assistance?