T Nation

Strength Before Size? Why?

[quote]alexus wrote:
?

you just seem quick to say that other people are stupid or fail to understand or whatever and i’m not sure where that is coming from…

if a newb can’t do a chin-up then i figure the newb would probably be better off getting that sussed before worrying about curls. but know what? if a newb gets a hard-on about doing curls and doing them at the end of their session gets them working hard in the gym then it would be better for them to have the damned things in there.

i do think that picking over details is what gets people confused… the analytic types won’t get off their butts and commit to anything because they are still hunting for the wonderful magical perfect program that will transform them. nothing is perfect. lots of different things are equally good. and nothing lasts forever.

whatever.

just do it already.[/quote]

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.

[quote]alexus wrote:
if a newb can’t do a chin-up then i figure the newb would probably be better off getting that sussed before worrying about curls. [/quote]

I don’t disagree that the newb should work on the chins. I just don’t feel that he or anyone, should do one at teh expense of the other, if their goal is big arms.

That is why it is so frustrating of a topic. People dismiss the curl and are never around when the same newb comes back in 18 months bitching that he has a 400lbs pull with 14" arms at 6’.

You can do both lifts, and your body will adapt and you will develop the work capcity. (I spell like shit, btw, without spell check.) Shit, 99.9% of people can use the extra work capcity.

I agree with everything you are sayign here too, but there is no point in dumbing shit down to the lowest common denominator. 95% of people that start lifting today, and I don’t give a shit what program they use, will quit before year 3. Unless you are selling books, there is no point in speaking to the 95%, they aren’t going to make it.

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[/quote]

A broken clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.

[quote]mr popular wrote:
This argument would be going a lot differently if everybody in it had stats and pictures of their physique… but since that isn’t going to happen:

you would LOVE this ironaddicts forum then

they have a strength verified status that requires you to post vids of you lifting, if memory serves me correct, 300 bench, 400 squat, and 500 dead. and i think they have a size verified status as well. its been awhile since i have been on there. they were having server issues last time i was there.

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

But at least Olympic weightlifters can intelligently discuss building strength, power, and enhancing athletic performance. Bodybuilders…hmmm, they really can’t talk about any of these things. All they know is aesthetics. It’s like comparing a hair stylist and a brain surgeon - both work on the head, but only one can actually save a person’s life.

And it seems that everyone and their brother can call themselves a “bodybuilder” simply by stepping into a gym. The title of Olympic weightlifter must be earned. I earned my title by stepping out on the platform. You want stats? In my first meet I placed second in my age division and weight class.

But don’t listen to me. I’m just a cranky old Masters Olympic weightlifter.

Okay, I’m getting snarky and starting to launch personal attacks.

To the OP: Pick a bodypart split from the thread that Alexus mentioned and work the crap out of whatever program you choose.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat people. Everything works, but nothing works forever. I’ve done SS myself, especially as a beginner and it without question helped give me a base of strength in the basic movement patterns.

In fact, I would say take SS and on the off days throw in some isolation work and you’ve got yourself a pretty decent program…

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[/quote]

A broken clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.[/quote]

Unless it’s atomic!

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

But at least Olympic weightlifters can intelligently discuss building strength, power, and enhancing athletic performance. Bodybuilders…hmmm, they really can’t talk about any of these things. All they know is aesthetics. It’s like comparing a hair stylist and a brain surgeon - both work on the head, but only one can actually save a person’s life.

And it seems that everyone and their brother can call themselves a “bodybuilder” simply by stepping into a gym. The title of Olympic weightlifter must be earned. I earned my title by stepping out on the platform. You want stats? In my first meet I placed second in my age division and weight class.

But don’t listen to me. I’m just a cranky old Masters Olympic weightlifter.

Okay, I’m getting snarky and starting to launch personal attacks.

To the OP: Pick a bodypart split from the thread that Alexus mentioned and work the crap out of whatever program you choose. [/quote]

Cool story, but the point of the thread is about why you do or don’t need strength before training for hypertrophy.

To continue your analogy, if someone’s question is about what # razor to use on the back of their head to copy Brad Pitt from Fight Club, you wouldn’t ask a brain surgeon… so why is the brain surgeon weighing in?

Mikey the Pooh, your number one source of Tnation entertainment since Dankid was run out of town.

I think I’ll start giving advice on the OLifting forum. I mean I have a 500lbs+ pull, so I know what I’m talking about in all aspects of weight lifting.

Fucking internet…

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[/quote]

A broken clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.[/quote]

Unless it’s atomic![/quote]

Actually, even they have a margin of error. And their exactness is in regard to the precise running of the clock, not it’s calibration to “correct” time.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I think I’ll start giving advice on the OLifting forum. I mean I have a 500lbs+ pull, so I know what I’m talking about in all aspects of weight lifting.

Fucking internet…

[/quote]

This isn’t the BBing forum. And most people that give advice in the BBing forum are not actual competing BBers.

The other side of this is that O-lifting is in part about adding muscle, BBing is not in part about getting good at the O-lifts.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[/quote]

A broken clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.[/quote]

Unless it’s atomic![/quote]

Actually, even they have a margin of error. And their exactness is in regard to the precise running of the clock, not it’s calibration to “correct” time.[/quote]

Interesting and I suppose that makes sense. However, since time doesn’t truly exist and is assigned and compartmentalized by man, i.e. a human construct, who’s to say which clock is right and which is wrong?

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[/quote]

A broken clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.[/quote]

Unless it’s atomic![/quote]

Actually, even they have a margin of error. And their exactness is in regard to the precise running of the clock, not it’s calibration to “correct” time.[/quote]

Interesting and I suppose that makes sense. However, since time doesn’t truly exist and is assigned and compartmentalized by man, i.e. a human construct, who’s to say which clock is right and which is wrong?[/quote]

Either way, they are all wrong by some standard where broken ones are exactly correct, by any standard, twice a day.

Any measure of a continuous object is, by definition in-exact.

Although I guess it could be perfect if the universe were actually discontinuous, which is possible.

/tangent

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

But at least Olympic weightlifters can intelligently discuss building strength, power, and enhancing athletic performance. Bodybuilders…hmmm, they really can’t talk about any of these things. All they know is aesthetics. It’s like comparing a hair stylist and a brain surgeon - both work on the head, but only one can actually save a person’s life.

And it seems that everyone and their brother can call themselves a “bodybuilder” simply by stepping into a gym. The title of Olympic weightlifter must be earned. I earned my title by stepping out on the platform. You want stats? In my first meet I placed second in my age division and weight class.

But don’t listen to me. I’m just a cranky old Masters Olympic weightlifter.

Okay, I’m getting snarky and starting to launch personal attacks.

To the OP: Pick a bodypart split from the thread that Alexus mentioned and work the crap out of whatever program you choose. [/quote]

Cool story, but the point of the thread is about why you do or don’t need strength before training for hypertrophy.

To continue your analogy, if someone’s question is about what # razor to use on the back of their head to copy Brad Pitt from Fight Club, you wouldn’t ask a brain surgeon… so why is the brain surgeon weighing in?[/quote]

I see it this way: If someone says they want a career where they can work on people’s heads, would you advise them to become a hair stylist or brain surgeon, assuming the person was smart enough to be a brain surgeon? I guess I never saw the point of looking strong without being strong as well - it’s just a waste of time. Yeah I know - bodybuilders can gain strength.

But back to the original question. Look at the guys training in the Indigo Project. There are esthetic benefits to be gained from training for strength. The guys with a strength background have a better quality physique. Synergy was very impressive. And IMO, CT has always been the poster boy for a “strength first” approach. And then there was Professor X. He took a lot of crap for the weights he was using and his level of conditioning. I played nice and tried to be supportive, and I also realized he was fighting a cold, had some asthma issues, and he was training at altitude, so some of the criticism was undeserved. But still, at the end of the day, he came across as weak and out of shape. I do not want to be like that, nor should anyone else. And based on my own experience and observations of my own training and watching others, traditional bodybuilding methods will leave you weak and out of shape.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[/quote]

A broken clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.[/quote]

Unless it’s atomic![/quote]

Actually, even they have a margin of error. And their exactness is in regard to the precise running of the clock, not it’s calibration to “correct” time.[/quote]

Interesting and I suppose that makes sense. However, since time doesn’t truly exist and is assigned and compartmentalized by man, i.e. a human construct, who’s to say which clock is right and which is wrong?[/quote]

Any measure of a continuous object is, by definition in-exact.

Although I guess it could be perfect if the universe were actually discontinuous, which is possible.

/tangent[/quote]

Interesting to think about.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I think I’ll start giving advice on the OLifting forum. I mean I have a 500lbs+ pull, so I know what I’m talking about in all aspects of weight lifting.

Fucking internet…

[/quote]

This isn’t the BBing forum. And most people that give advice in the BBing forum are not actual competing BBers.

The other side of this is that O-lifting is in part about adding muscle, BBing is not in part about getting good at the O-lifts.[/quote]

Again based on my own experience, when I switched to an O lifting program I gained both strength AND size and I wasn’t even trying to gain size. No special diet, supplements, or special super-secret training techniques - just the O lifts and squats. To be fair, I tend to gain muscle easily and I don’t have a problem putting down food, but still. The whole experience made me feel like the time I spent doing bodybuilding was wasted.

What’s this thread about again? A skinny kind wanting size wasn’t it? lol

Not that my post matters now, but here it goes:

Train a muscle as frequently as it can recover from (i.e. when your stronger, you’re recovered)

Gain 3-4lbs a month while shooting for at least 1g protein/lbs of bodyweight/day

Was that simple enough? :slight_smile:

PS - don’t neglect your upper chest, arms, delts…etc (also known as doing Starting Strength)