T Nation

Strength Before Size? Why?

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You can still do curls, and do the big lifts, like 100% of the people he wants to look like do.
[/quote]

In an ideal world, sure. But there’s only so much time in the gym and so much you can throw at the body without impacting recovery. Instead of waisting time and recovery resources on curls, the kid should do a few extra sets of rows, or pull ups, or some other back movement. That’ll hit the biceps plenty while providing extra work for the back.
[/quote]

Except that a set of rows does not have the same recovery demands as a set of curls, so that’s an irrelevant point. Also, very few newbs train too much to recover from (if anything they just undereat).

I fail to see how adding 3 sets of curls at the end of a back workout could possibly impact OP negatively. They should be done last and not first though.

The only way having an arm day would get in the way of the basics is if you were training total body every day - which you can’t - so what the hell is the difference? Makes more sense to just put your upper body on a separate day, and even do some curls, when you’d just be taking the next 1-2 days completely off otherwise.

[quote]JFG wrote:
To gain size you need poundage.

To get poundage you need strength.

To get strength you need to follow a strength program.
[/quote]

goddamn does this need to be repeated add infinitum

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You can still do curls, and do the big lifts, like 100% of the people he wants to look like do.
[/quote]

In an ideal world, sure. But there’s only so much time in the gym and so much you can throw at the body without impacting recovery. Instead of waisting time and recovery resources on curls, the kid should do a few extra sets of rows, or pull ups, or some other back movement. That’ll hit the biceps plenty while providing extra work for the back.
[/quote]

Okay, you have to be fucking kidding me right now. Your whole “don’t do curls” argument is based on them inhibiting recovery, and then you suggest someone do extra ROWS and CHINS instead?

So let me see if I get this. 6 fucking sets of curls a week will reduce recovery abilities, while an extra 6 sets of rows and chins, will, in your mind and your mind alone, stimulate the bi’s just as much as a curl, hit the back too, and impact recovery less?

Am I fucking retarded or is your argument just plain awful right now?

Look if you don’t want to curl, fucking don’t, neither I nor anyone else gives a shit. But don’t give advice to people with appearance goals based on your goals, particularly given you are making up bullshit to support your argument.

If someone can’t recover from 3-6 sets of curls at the end of back day, or 3-6 sets of lateral raises after over head press, they are either a giant pussy and need a new hobby, need to see a doctor because something is wrong with them, or they are 7 years old.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Instead of waisting time and recovery resources on curls,
[/quote]

Also, it’s not wasted time to him. The fact that you don’t understand that means maybe you shouldn’t be giving advice to people that don’t have the same goals as you.

You are too focused on yourself, your goals, and your dogma to truly understand not everyone wants the same things you do out of this thing we do.

This argument would be going a lot differently if everybody in it had stats and pictures of their physique… but since that isn’t going to happen:

I personally think it’s just a question of emphasis (as opposed strength Vs size), typical bb’er type rep ranges can be good for building mass (especially if you are already reasonably strong, though, they aren’t very efficient for a total beginner who can barely rep 60kgs on bench press).

Also, with greater overall strength, you’ll get much more out of the smaller isolation movements which can be focussed on with far more weight a little down the line.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
The fact that you don’t understand that…[/quote]

Do you speak this way to everyone IRL, too??

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
I personally think it’s just a question of emphasis (as opposed strength Vs size), typical bb’er type rep ranges can be good for building mass (especially if you are already reasonably strong, though, they aren’t very efficient for a total beginner who can barely rep 60kgs on bench press).

Also, with greater overall strength, you’ll get much more out of the smaller isolation movements which can be focussed on with far more weight a little down the line.

[/quote]

Answer this:

What is better a year from now, given OP’s goals?

a) A kid with a 5 rep max of 275

b) A kid with a 5 rep max of 275, an 8 rep max of 245 and a 12 rep max of 225

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
The fact that you don’t understand that…[/quote]

Do you speak this way to everyone IRL, too??
[/quote]

Yes.

Now go on and make baseless assumptions about my personal and professional life because the truth hurts.

Now THAT is relevant to whether a newb should do a curl or two.

?

you just seem quick to say that other people are stupid or fail to understand or whatever and i’m not sure where that is coming from…

if a newb can’t do a chin-up then i figure the newb would probably be better off getting that sussed before worrying about curls. but know what? if a newb gets a hard-on about doing curls and doing them at the end of their session gets them working hard in the gym then it would be better for them to have the damned things in there.

i do think that picking over details is what gets people confused… the analytic types won’t get off their butts and commit to anything because they are still hunting for the wonderful magical perfect program that will transform them. nothing is perfect. lots of different things are equally good. and nothing lasts forever.

whatever.

just do it already.

[quote]alexus wrote:
?

you just seem quick to say that other people are stupid or fail to understand or whatever and i’m not sure where that is coming from…

if a newb can’t do a chin-up then i figure the newb would probably be better off getting that sussed before worrying about curls. but know what? if a newb gets a hard-on about doing curls and doing them at the end of their session gets them working hard in the gym then it would be better for them to have the damned things in there.

i do think that picking over details is what gets people confused… the analytic types won’t get off their butts and commit to anything because they are still hunting for the wonderful magical perfect program that will transform them. nothing is perfect. lots of different things are equally good. and nothing lasts forever.

whatever.

just do it already.[/quote]

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.

[quote]alexus wrote:
if a newb can’t do a chin-up then i figure the newb would probably be better off getting that sussed before worrying about curls. [/quote]

I don’t disagree that the newb should work on the chins. I just don’t feel that he or anyone, should do one at teh expense of the other, if their goal is big arms.

That is why it is so frustrating of a topic. People dismiss the curl and are never around when the same newb comes back in 18 months bitching that he has a 400lbs pull with 14" arms at 6’.

You can do both lifts, and your body will adapt and you will develop the work capcity. (I spell like shit, btw, without spell check.) Shit, 99.9% of people can use the extra work capcity.

I agree with everything you are sayign here too, but there is no point in dumbing shit down to the lowest common denominator. 95% of people that start lifting today, and I don’t give a shit what program they use, will quit before year 3. Unless you are selling books, there is no point in speaking to the 95%, they aren’t going to make it.

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[/quote]

A broken clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.

[quote]mr popular wrote:
This argument would be going a lot differently if everybody in it had stats and pictures of their physique… but since that isn’t going to happen:

you would LOVE this ironaddicts forum then

they have a strength verified status that requires you to post vids of you lifting, if memory serves me correct, 300 bench, 400 squat, and 500 dead. and i think they have a size verified status as well. its been awhile since i have been on there. they were having server issues last time i was there.

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

But at least Olympic weightlifters can intelligently discuss building strength, power, and enhancing athletic performance. Bodybuilders…hmmm, they really can’t talk about any of these things. All they know is aesthetics. It’s like comparing a hair stylist and a brain surgeon - both work on the head, but only one can actually save a person’s life.

And it seems that everyone and their brother can call themselves a “bodybuilder” simply by stepping into a gym. The title of Olympic weightlifter must be earned. I earned my title by stepping out on the platform. You want stats? In my first meet I placed second in my age division and weight class.

But don’t listen to me. I’m just a cranky old Masters Olympic weightlifter.

Okay, I’m getting snarky and starting to launch personal attacks.

To the OP: Pick a bodypart split from the thread that Alexus mentioned and work the crap out of whatever program you choose.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat people. Everything works, but nothing works forever. I’ve done SS myself, especially as a beginner and it without question helped give me a base of strength in the basic movement patterns.

In fact, I would say take SS and on the off days throw in some isolation work and you’ve got yourself a pretty decent program…

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[/quote]

A broken clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.[/quote]

Unless it’s atomic!

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:

You are a female olympic weightlifter.

No one cares what you think about bodybuilding. Seriously.[/quote]

yeah, i clearly don’t know what i’m on about when i say that people should check out the ‘do this routine instead of that dumb one’ thread over on the bodybuilding forum if they want a decent bodypart split program.

silly girl.[/quote]

But at least Olympic weightlifters can intelligently discuss building strength, power, and enhancing athletic performance. Bodybuilders…hmmm, they really can’t talk about any of these things. All they know is aesthetics. It’s like comparing a hair stylist and a brain surgeon - both work on the head, but only one can actually save a person’s life.

And it seems that everyone and their brother can call themselves a “bodybuilder” simply by stepping into a gym. The title of Olympic weightlifter must be earned. I earned my title by stepping out on the platform. You want stats? In my first meet I placed second in my age division and weight class.

But don’t listen to me. I’m just a cranky old Masters Olympic weightlifter.

Okay, I’m getting snarky and starting to launch personal attacks.

To the OP: Pick a bodypart split from the thread that Alexus mentioned and work the crap out of whatever program you choose. [/quote]

Cool story, but the point of the thread is about why you do or don’t need strength before training for hypertrophy.

To continue your analogy, if someone’s question is about what # razor to use on the back of their head to copy Brad Pitt from Fight Club, you wouldn’t ask a brain surgeon… so why is the brain surgeon weighing in?