T Nation

Street Judo


#1

In a lot of these street fight discussion threads, Judo usually comes up as an art that will end a fight real fast. The advantages of judo are obvious (throws on concrete are brutal, throws allow you to stay standing while your opponent falls, if you're good opponents can be thrown into other opponents, most opponents in the street won't be prepared for a fall etc), but I'm interested in discussing specifics.

Clothing can rip more easily than a gi and t-shirts don't even have sleeves you can grip. What techniques would work with disadvantageous clothing? Do you go for the hip throws that use a grip around the waist, or modify techniques so you grip the wrist instead of the sleeve? Even more generally, would you go for throws, or play it safe with sweeps that won't expose your back? Considering your opponent will not be a judoka, how are you actually going to unbalance him? Are there forbidden judo throws you would find practical (kata guruma comes to mind as one that would probably look awesome to onlookers but I doubt its that practical)?

So basically: you're fighting one or two people in the street. Lets say they're wearing jeans and wifebeaters. No weapons. what techniques and how do you set them up?


#2

Jeans and wifebeaters? I'm switching to wrestling.


#3

Leg sweeps and hip throws. That being said, it is pretty hard to get close to an opponent once combat starts. Competition Judo won't teach you how to deal with punches while you're setting up.


#4

I once ended up using judo as self defense....worked pretty good.

In the middle of a soccer match this guy starts throwing punches at me (I was apparently being to aggressive with my shoulder)...ref is minding his own business somewhere else on the field. After he swings at my face 2 times (and hits 1 time) and the ref still not doing shit I take the situation into my own hands, get into him real close and hip throw him (took another punch as all this happened), I like to land full force on their chest/stomach as they smack down on the ground.

There he was, on his back on the ground,no air, and me sitting on top....I could have used his face as a boxing ball at this point...which was the plan but got pulled of by couple team mates.


#5

From my experience it really doesn't matter what the persons wearing if you've did judo at a fairly high level, competed allot to throw someone with little or no grappling experience. You don't have to grab any clothing Kubi nage, koshi garuma, seo nage, ogoshi, Every ashi waza foot technique, sweep is fantastic judo to do Judo alone to learn this is worth it.

I wouldn't have 1 set plan a street fight is unpredictable I use use anything that presents its self and try not to get in a fight on the streets. This being said use striking and in the chaos use foot sweeps ko ouchi gari, ko soto gari take your opponent down and keep standing kick him in the head punch him if he grabs your leg stick a thumb in his eye then continuously punch him until he out. If you close the distance use hip throws and if you can use ura nage, don't use sacrifice throws stay standing.

Theirs benefits of Judo and Benefits of wrestling, and benefits of BJJ in a grappling art for street I like Judo because you remain standing, i like wrestling for chaotic situations and simplicity and BJJ for when you've hit rock bottom and your spread eagle on the ground.

Judo takes longer than wrestling to be proficient in but has its benefits gi throws, specialty in foot sweeps. Add in a striking art and you have solid self defense ability.


#6

I'll have to make sure my back never faces any of those fuckers and, I don't want to go on the ground with any of them. So I'll go with safer leg sweeps.

In the case that one of them grabs me, pushes me around/attempts to choke me, I could use O sotogari to unbalance him and get his ass on the floor. Koshi guruma is another option but since we've got 2 guys here, I don't want my back facing one, while I toss the other on the concrete. De ashi barai is another leg sweep I could use if I want to stay standing, and then swiftly move to the next opponent, but it won't have as much impact as Koshi guruma or or let's say, seo nage or ogoshi.

Usually with ogoshi, all I have to do is grab their jeans' belt and, dig my nails into their flesh as I grasp and pull their arm. Most times, the victim might want to fight as I carry them on my hips, so it's up to me to be swift and precise with my throw, or I can always to transition to a different technique.


#7

A judoka knows submissions as well, granted we're speaking about a legit black belt.

Regardless if he gets proper grips or not, his knowledge of leverage will help him throw nearly anyone on the street.
From there it's a simple armbar or kezakatami...

You can try to swing and strike with the judoka, but if you miss.... oh man


#8

Alright so what if they had you outflanked? Say #1 is in front of you and # 2 is right behind you. You move in to attack #1. #2 moves to attack you at the same time. If you use a seoi nage on #1 you'll be turned around at the end of the attack and #1 is obstructing or crashing into #2. If you instead used any leg sweeps your back is still going to be exposed by the time #2 reaches you, right? Certain techniques are better suited to maintaining a good defensive position(as you mentioned about not going to the ground) Gimme some more thoughts on how you are playing off various different ways your opponents might be positioned.

I bring this all up because these "street" threads seem into arguments about running vs. not running. I wanna discuss more specific concrete tactics


#9

The problem is that there aren't any set in stone specific concrete tactics because real combat has so many possible variables and is a fluid ever changing environment.

If we are talking about multiples here, then Judo is not going to be the best first line of attack in most cases; striking (and generally striking to the bio computer/brain/head specifically, but some other high priority targets like the groin or eyes are also good initial choices) should be priority #1 in such a situation. Judo would come into play:

1) as a follow up to your initial strike when the opponent is stunned or recovering from your initial striking attack and you feel that there is enough time available to be able to throw/sweep/slam them into the ground to deal additional damage/immobilize them
2) if you are grabbed and "held" by one member in an attempt to allow the other attack(s) to wail on you and need to separate and damage that individual (and possibly reposition their body between you and the other attackers)

In general though, when it comes to multiples you want to stay as mobile as possible (which means only grappling if there is need to do so, or at very least the grappling involves minimal entanglement with the opponents), hit first, hit hardest, try to position yourself so you have to fight as few opponents as possible at a time, try to attain a weapon/force multiplier to use as either a deterrent to your opponents wanting to continue or to utilize to more efficiently damage/destroy your opponents, and get the hell out of Dodge.


#10

Honestly, if I'm flanked by two motherfuckers, I will not think about applying some Judo techniques first. And this is coming from someone who trained Judo for 12 years.

My first priority will be to incapacitate #1 (kick in the groin/kneecap, or kick/ punch in liver) then, swiftly take care of the next fucker behind me.

If #2 grabs me, I'd simply turn, grab and lock out his arms and, kick him in the groin, or smash his Adam apple with my fist, or just gouge his eyes out. If #1 is still down, then I might seo nage #2 to finish the job.

If #1 is about to recoup, as in getting back on his feet, then he'll get a brutal headkick to incapacitate him some more. When the attacker is on his knees, I'd usually go for a slapping head kick at the back of the head or, with a front kick with my toes pointing up so that I can smack his chin and smash his jaw shut.

Then I'll fucking run as far as my legs can carry me.

All this scenario will depend on how fast I deal with my attackers and how good they are at taking shots. You can't be lucky all the time. But I've had enough experience in being into fights to know that, a good kick in the balls, a punch in the liver or larynx, and fingers in the eye are quite enough to slow down a motherfucker.

Just be the first to apply them.


#11

What does that mean?


#12

Martial Arts are not self defense. While they hold many principles that can be applied to self defense, most do not account for adaptability and asymmetrical warfare...

In all honestly, if possible, a palm strike through someones' head usually does the trick.


#13

I tried that once but since I'm short and she was tall I only managed to hit her ample breast which was able to absorb the blow.


#14

In my experience, however limited it may be, you can modify gi holds to positions on the arm, wrist or chest so they work. If you can get some clothing or a jacket, sleeve it works better of course but if you practice to do it without it being there you will be in better shape.

I would suspect that in a street exchange if you were to use a throw it would be in a situation where the opponent was closing in on you and you would use his momentum to complete the throw. I would never reach for a hip toss or takedown.


#15

Judo has been used successfully in mma. It isn't "teh streets" but there is no clothing to grab and both fighters know they are going into a fight and who they are fighting beforehand.


#16

It depends on the Martial Art and your definition of what constitutes a MA. You are right that some do a very poor job of addressing real world self defense, but there are definitely those that do a very good job of it. For the most part sweeping generalizations like that leave something to be desired.


#17

Without clothing to grab (assuming a real situation without rules) things like over hooks/whizzers, underhooks, collar ties, grabbing the wrists, throat, hair, chin, testicles, fish hooking, ears, or manipulating the body through attacking the nerves or eyes all work very well for securing and/or off balancing someone so you can throw them/take them down.

To be honest though, where I live at least, I am much more likely to encounter someone wearing clothing (which would include at least pants/shorts, and very often at least a light jacket if not a heavier jacket) than to encounter someone walking around with no shirt/a rash guard, and in their underwear. So, depending on the climate you live in, Gi may actually be more practical than no Gi.


#18

Fair, but let me clarify my point of view. Martial arts, for the most part, focus on strict form, discipline, etc. It's more about the art. A skilled martial artist could win in a "street fight", because a skilled martial artist knows principles. It's like that quote from Bruce Lee. At first a punch is a punch, then you learn all of the technique that goes into a punch, and with enough practice the punch (again) becomes just a punch. A person who wants to learn self defense through martial arts will have to go through a lot of BS (as it's related to actual self defense) in order to get to the actual principles that will help him or her survive an actual violent confrontation.

In regards to martial arts training to the general public -- to your average Joe looking for a way to defend himself -- he's better off taking an actual self defense class. He doesn't need to learn strict forms and techniques unless he's doing it because he actually enjoys the ART of it. Self defense needs to be as simple as possible so that it's easy to remember for your average citizen who can't devote their life to training like some people do. They don't need to be doing wrist locks or other fine motor skill movements, and they don't need to be taking people to the ground to do some sort of BJJ or other grappling submission.

I realize people want to learn how to Jason Bourne someone on the street, but the harsh reality is that this is an unrealistic goal for a majority of the population.


#19

Again though, it depends on the Martial Art. Not all arts start out teaching people strict forms or fine motor skill based techniques, and the ones focused on real world application will do just as good if not better of a job of teaching people cerebral, verbal, and postural self defense skills. They will also likely do a far superior job of teaching the mechanics behind "simple effective" foundational self defense skills like basic linear and circular striking (be that palm smashes, punches, hammer fists, etc..,) because practitioners of such styles have most likely spent much more time and energy really fine tuning such skills and applying them against other highly trained fighters.

To be perfectly honest, the physical skills (or at least the level of instruction in them) found in most "self defense" courses are pathetic in comparison to those taught in good Martial Arts (be they Sport Martial Arts or Reality Martial Arts). Such courses also generally don't ever truly put pressure on the attendees/make them uncomfortable. This only serves to give them a false sense of security in the skills they have learned. Yes, it's a good thing for people to gain a sense of empowerment and confidence upon developing self defense skills, but if that confidence is built upon a false foundation based on uncommitted/cooperative assailants, things working exactly how they are supposed to each time, and never really experiencing any pain, discomfort, or real struggle then their self confidence will be disproportionate to their actual skill, which is a bad thing.

What those courses actually do a pretty good job of is getting people to realize the importance of actually fighting back, which especially in Women's self defense is something that many people struggle with. Some also do pretty well with educating people on their legal rights in terms of self defense, and simple preventative strategies to help them steer clear of trouble before it actually becomes physical.

But again, good RMA's teach all of that stuff too, do a better job of teaching simple effective physical skills, actually expose their students to things like adversity, discomfort, struggle, and resistance, stress inoculation training, and fear management skills/strategies and thus do a much better job of preparing even beginner level students for real world self defense situations. Not to mention the fact that with RMA's you will eventually learn higher level "complex effective" skill sets, modern weaponry (both conventional and makeshift/improvised) skills, and be able to effectively deal with more dangerous types of assailants.

Finally, since prevention is often the best cure, the discipline, humility, moral compass, and self control emphasized by TMA's and good RMA's are among the most important/effective self defense skills that you can learn. Remember that most fights don't begin when the first punch is thrown, nor do they end when the last decisive physical technique is executed.


#20

Sento wrote:

Again though, it depends on the Martial Art. Not all arts start out teaching people strict forms or fine motor skill based techniques, and the ones focused on real world application will do just as good if not better of a job of teaching people cerebral, verbal, and postural self defense skills. They will also likely do a far superior job of teaching the mechanics behind "simple effective" foundational self defense skills like basic linear and circular striking (be that palm smashes, punches, hammer fists, etc..,) because practitioners of such styles have most likely spent much more time and energy really fine tuning such skills and applying them against other highly trained fighters.

To be perfectly honest, the physical skills (or at least the level of instruction in them) found in most "self defense" courses are pathetic in comparison to those taught in good Martial Arts (be they Sport Martial Arts or Reality Martial Arts).

( How true this is)

Such courses also generally don't ever truly put pressure on the attendees/make them uncomfortable. This only serves to give them a false sense of security in the skills they have learned.

( One of the most common mistakes made, excellent point)

Yes, it's a good thing for people to gain a sense of empowerment and confidence upon developing self defense skills, but if that confidence is built upon a false foundation based on uncommitted/cooperative assailants, things working exactly how they are supposed to each time, and never really experiencing any pain, discomfort, or real struggle then their self confidence will be disproportionate to their actual skill, which is a bad thing.

( Yes, people should committ that statement to memory)

What those courses actually do a pretty good job of is getting people to realize the importance of actually fighting back, which especially in Women's self defense is something that many people struggle with.

( major,major point here, especially if you have ever worked with any rape victims).

Some also do pretty well with educating people on their legal rights in terms of self defense, and simple preventative strategies to help them steer clear of trouble before it actually becomes physical.

( a hallmark of of good course)

But again, good RMA's teach all of that stuff too, do a better job of teaching simple effective physical skills, actually expose their students to things like adversity, discomfort, struggle, and resistance, stress inoculation training, and fear management skills/strategies and thus do a much better job of preparing even beginner level students for real world self defense situations. Not to mention the fact that with RMA's you will eventually learn higher level "complex effective" skill sets, modern weaponry (both conventional and makeshift/improvised) skills, and be able to effectively deal with more dangerous types of assailants.

Finally, since prevention is often the best cure, the discipline, humility, moral compass, and self control emphasized by TMA's and good RMA's are among the most important/effective self defense skills that you can learn. Remember that most fights don't begin when the first punch is thrown, nor do they end when the last decisive physical technique is executed.

( everyone needs to read that statement twice, because, if you survive, and you are in the United States legal problems are sure to follow, especially if a firearm is involved. In the real world you are either dead, injured, or sued)

excellent post, Sento.