T Nation

Straight to Steroids?


First, a little background on myself:
41 y/o, 6', 178lbs, 32" waist, 16" arms, so basically a medium build guy wanting to put on about 20 to 30 more lbs.

Ok, enough of that. I was having a discussion with a guy at my gym about supplements and my next attempt at bulking up a little more. He was saying that he doesn't understand why people would want things like supplements. His advice was to take about 200mg/day of Primo and 20mg/day winny for four weeks on and 4 weeks off until I reach my target.

His logic was that the gains would come 10x faster and that these are very mild steroids that require no PCT and can be taken orally (drink the winny). I can test my liver if I want after each cycle and, as such, there is virtually no risk.

Now, I don't know much about steroids but after spending many hours reading about these, he seems to be correct.

What do some of you guys think?

Thanks for your help,
-- Lonnie





well, he's kinda right....i get the impression that he was giving you adice on the situation, not speaking generally.

the reason why people take supplements, is that it gives them more of an edge, without actually using AAS (and breaking the law). in the US, AAS are a class III controlled substance, which makes it a felony to mess with them. so a more casual or newer lifter would use supps instead...also, once you use steroids (which are much more potent than most supps), it's hard to go back. one would want to grow as much naturally as possible and put off using AAS until it's a "last resort"

the cycle he suggested is pretty similar to the short cycle theory that some of the guys are using here, which is actually a pretty decent idea. even using Primo and Winny together should be relatively synergistic....

however, winny does affect the liver, and it's wise to do PCT after every cycle, regardless of the length.

how long have you been lifting for? for you, this might not be a bad cycle, but i'd suggest researching more, and hear what the other guys have to say...check out the Newbie Steroid thread...


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Lonnie, give us some data to get us started. What's your lifting experience, what workout plans do you follow right now and what have you used in the past, have you been consistently eating what you have to, do you sleep well, ...?

There are a lot to work from there, but until we have these informations, I just can't help but say, "What the hell do you want to mess with your health for so little?". You just hit a plateau, and these happen frequently, AAS or not. I don't think AAS are the answer to your problem right now, but as I said, explain your situation more thoroughly so we can work it out.

There's a lot more to training and nutrition than swallowing a handful of pills each morning and think they'll do the trick.



After posting I realized that I should have given more background. I started out at about 220lbs and dieted down to about 155 and looked like a crack user (IMO). Then through a couple of bulk attempts I am where I am now. I follow the advice here on t-mag pretty well actually for nutrition and lifting.

Currently I am working out 4x/week using upper/lower splits twice - once heavy and low rep (3-5) and once higher (10 reps for each. I plan to start the perfect 10 training in about 3 weeks.

So, I lift heavy. I sleep well. And, I eat pretty darn good. I feel that I am doing pretty good in all areas, but I tend to gain a lot of fat when I bulk.

I have used all Biotest supps as appropriate during cutting/bulking but if steroids used properly are as safe as I have read and been told then I see no reason why, at my age, I shouldn't try.

But when you read 10 different article on the web, you end up with 10 different views. So, I am here to ask you guys for help.



aside from the fact that at your height and weight you do not have enough base muscle for steroid gains to last, consider the following: by using these drugs you will become a criminal, whether you do it in a safe manner or not. Also, starting this late in life you can not expect to get huge because, and i dont mean to sound like a total dick here, but you're past your prime. While you still can build a pretty impressive physique, i'd say take it natural until you are at VERY least 220 lbs in good shape, then think about the juice, and at your age you may want to consider something more androgenic. Hell, you could probably even go to the doctor and get test injections legally as long as you tell him that you feel lethargic and don't have a sex drive, plus you'll have blood work and everything covered. And if your scared of the needle than you, IMO, dont have what it takes to put yourself through what you need to to make the best of the gear (and i do mean to sound like a dick on that one, steroids arent for pussies or people looking to put on a little muscle). I have never used because i am too young, but i do read a shitload about the stuff (and i'm a biochem major), and i'm sure someone who has used can back me up on this.


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i agree with my homey BushBoy...since your natural test levels are declining, AAS will probably have a more profound effect on you than if you were younger. it appears that your traning and diet/supps are in order, so it's up to you. i would second the suggestion to check with the doc-you're better off going the legal route, if possible.

also, how long have you been trianing for? i think i missed your response on that...


As far as base muscle, i have always heard that if a person has not established at least a good build, then the gains will eventually be lost, even with PCT. Also, i do not think that 220 with about 15% body fat should be that hard to attain at 6' tall (by huge i meant 250+). At that point the cycle he is talking about would do wonders to harden and shred him up. However, i still do not think that steroids should be called into play in order to reach ~200lbs on a 6' frame, as it is not that big, just noticeably muscular and athletic looking.

I do not, however, think that Test therapy would be a bad idea just for the other benefits that are to be had (vitality, virility, etc.), and if it makes you grow, all the better. What i'm trying to say is that self administered illegal drugs are pretty much the end of the hardcore bodybuilding line, and if your goals do not reside in that realm of hardcore, if you will, than the costs are not balanced by the benefits, IMO.

Confucious say "Do not use cannon to kill mosquito."


Bro "hearing" something is not the best frame of reference to use when giving advice to someone on aas...use the media as an example...americans hear the bullshit that gets spit out of every reporter's mouth and consider it gospel. Your contribution to the board is appreciated, as I'm sure you're just trying to help, but please offer advice on something that you have real world experience with...it's frustrating for a lot of the vets(myself included) to see incorrect advice being given.



I appreciate all of the replies, even the negative ones. I'm not trying to use a cannon to kill a mosquito. I was simply attempting to validate some advice I had received. While I never seriously considered steroids before. I have to say that after reading a lot, and the particular discussion I had, it does seem to make sense.

My last bulk added an inch to my arms and I consider it a huge success. BUT it took me a little over a year to do that and cut the fat back off. If there are safe ways to speed this process, then as long as I am working hard at it, why not look into it? I'm not looking for muscles in a pill or expecting miracles. I am looking at making the process better.

Why would I hitch up the horses to go to Wal-Mart when I can drive a car. If we have the know-how and it is as safe as everything I read, then why not?

Now, my goal is not to get huge (though I was told that as I add more muscle I will want to keep going). My goal is to get another 20-30 lbs and then evaluate what the next target is. I might be happy at the new weight and maybe not.

So, again, if some of the "milder" steroids can safely help the process, then I want to explore my options. Not because I want an easy route but because it only makes sense to use whatever tools you have to efficiently accomplish your goals.

Other than the legal issues, what is the concern over, as an example only, using a couple of short Deca cycles rather than a PH? I don't see a difference, based on my reading (and I plan to do a lot more), other than the Deca will put on more muscle faster than a PH.

If anyone can recommend a better first cycle than what was originally suggested (I am not afraid of needles it just seemed as if an oral only cycle was a good way to start considering my modest goals), please let me know.

And I have been training hard for about three years.

Again, I truly appreciate the feedback!



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