I am stopping TRT - 140mg test cypionate a week. I used it for 7 months total.
And only the last 2.5 month I added HCG 350iu EOD
Now I read some posts here and it seems a good way is to stop the Test, then do HCG until the test is out of the body and then stop HCG and start PCT for 4 weeks.
Is this a correct method ?
Questions :
How long should I wait before starting PCT ? As it is Test cypionate , would 4 weeks be enough ?
Because i already used hcg during trt is this still ok? And should I keep using the same dose as when using test (350iu eod) ? Or should i increase ?
I have Clomid already but can also buy nolvadex if needed, what do you guys recommend ? (Someone told me clomid is better because it covers all needed receptors ?)
For clomid PCT , what kind of dose and for how long do you guys recommend ? And for how long , I read very mixed dosages in threads.
Clomid is it good to taper the dose at the end or should I just stay on the same dose and then just stop at once ?
Thanks in advance, hope to get some help
My English is not perfect but hope it is clear enough
I’m currently 5 weeks into a restart protocol. There doesn’t seem to be a clear winning formula. The one I’m using is my interpretation of the available evidence and in my view is some amalgamation of the general consensus.
You’ve used HCG for a good while now this is good. 4 weeks is long enough to wash out that dose of Cypionate.
Personally I would do the following-
Stop testosterone and run HCG only at 500-750IU EOD for 4 weeks. Add 20mg Nolvadex per day for the final week of HCG(logic being that receptors start to get blocked preempting and increase in GnRH ready for stopping HCG to avoid a lag period.
The next 4 to 6 weeks is really up for debate too.
Personally I would go-
Week 1
40mg Nolvadex per day
50mg Clomid every other day(feel free to go to every day but clomid sides are no myth!)
Week 2
Same as week 1 but half the Clomid dose
Week 3
20mg Nolvadex
Week 4
20mg Nolvadex
Week 5 and 6 (optional)
20mg Nolvadex every other day
Get blood work done before starting Clomid.
Minimum of TT, FT, SHBG, E2
Get blood work done week 4 and week 8
If your balls worked adequately before TRT you’ll probably feel good on HCG only for 4 weeks no real need to be anxious about that period.
You might not feel so good on clomid. Maybe take vacation week 2 of SERMs if your concerned about performance at work etc.
Your plan is great but add in bloodwork after a month of SERM use (12.5 - 25mg clomid a day). Test your LH, FSH and Testosterone. If those numbers are healthy then go ahead and taper off the SERM. Don’t go by feel because clomid or other SERMs can make people feel like crap/emotional.
On a TRT dose of 140 mg/wk 4 weeks is overkill. Dose needs to be considered for clearance time. For a cycle dosage, 3-4 weeks is needed. On 140 mg/wk it is probably overkill.
After 1 week you will effectively have 70 mg of Test, after 2 weeks you will have about 35 mg of Test. I think that is low enough to start PCT, as it will likely be lower than your natural levels.
I would do 500 IU EOD of HCG in that two weeks, then start a SERM.
I have to agree the 4 weeks wash out is probably overkill. I graphed it on one of those online calculators and such a duration wasn’t really required. My thinking was simply the less exogenous test floating about in the body the better. Ideally zero but at the end of the day negligible is negligible whatever that value is
Don’t see the point of using two SERMs, or doubling the doses. You only have so many receptors and the “more is better” approach is likely to create more side effects than sped-up HPTa activity.
For me, there’s no clear winner between Clomid and Nolvadex. Clomid has more side effects so that in itself is good reason to choose Nolvadex alone which clearly works for guys over in the pharma section al the time.
To me seems like Clomid is slightly more effective in certain areas, improving sperm motility for example. This demonstrates that there is some difference between the two.
I ran Clomid as it seemed a more proven for drug for fertility in men. Perhaps there are just more studies available and that skews perception.
Why run Nolvadex? Running Clomid could spike e2 perhaps leading to some gyno symptoms at some point long the way. Taking an AI is an option but there will be times during a restart where e2 is very low and inhibiting aromatase is a bad idea. One would also be guessing how much and when to take it. Nolvadex takes care of any potential gyno when hormones are all over the place so worth adding IMO.
As for dosages, again 20mg Nolvadex only for 6 weeks seems to work fine for many. As does 50mg EoD Clomid only. Often these are people that have only done a 12 week cycle not been shut down for years. The well know Scally power PCT is very heavy handed but is a proven protocol. That doctor seems well respected in many spheres. I think starting with 50mg Clomid and 40mg Nolvadex per day is still a “kitchen sink” approach but a compromise and somewhat justified when trying to give yourself the best possible chance if a successful restart.
This would be my guess. Historically I’ve seen more that puts Clomid in the men’s hormone category and Nolva in the womens cancer catagory. So I think they get pigeon holed to a degree.
I’ve never noticed a difference between the two, aside from side effects
@cmx there’s some good arguments for using Nolvadex only in the linked thread. I’m pretty new to this forum but I think there used to be “stickies” with this kind of information.
In all honesty my test levels were still very low after two weeks of clomid so it’s certainly not a wonder drug. Its been shown to desensitise GnRH receptors over time too.
I think I’m probably in the one or the other camp as @swoops39 mentioned. Research the potential risks of the two SERMs and make a choice. Both have nasty list.
You don’t really need to wait at all as the long half life of clomid means it takes a while to build up in your system. I’d maybe even run them together for the final week but that’s a game of emotional Russian roulette.
This is standard but not fixed.
50mg EOD isn’t a relatively high dose but a good starting point probably more than enough.
Not really. Maybe in the first week or so due to long half life. At steady state no.
Can’t see why it would be helpful.
My only concern with a clomid only PCT is the possibility of getting gyno while your hormones are out of whack. You might want to add an AI if you take this route.
I’m just about finished 4 weeks of PCT and feeling pretty good this week. Initially I wanted to run clomid only but got quite bad pain in my nipple a few days in. This could have been because of the HCG I was taking but I’m not sure. I was taking Arimidex and still had gyno onset. I’ve been logging my restart and will continue updating with blood work etc for those considering coming of TRT for what ever reason.
Stop testosterone
Run HCG only for 2-4 weeks at 500IU EOD
Start Nolva 20mg/d during the final week of HCG
Run Nolvadex for a further 5 weeks at 20mg/d
Wait 2 weeks after last Nolva tablet and get blood work.
@dixiewrecked is correct in that LH/FSH are very useful during PCT. If you can you should add them to your blood work during SERMs and on completion of PCT. There’s no point in checking after HCG only as LH/FSH will be ~ zero.
I’d make the argument that it’s possible to know if your are primary or secondary by getting bloodwork done after 4 weeks of HCG mono-therapy.
If the testicles are producing adequate testosterone from the LH analog, one can proceed with confidence that the “T” in HPTA are online leaving the H and P left to get going again. This is the job for SERMs.
If testosterone levels are not adequate after HCG mono-therapy it might be best to up the dose and test again or accept TRT as the best outcome. Advantages to this approach include avoiding a hypogonadal state for a period until your levels increase and not spending hundreds of dollars on bloodwork and drugs for a hopeless cause.
Ok. I’ll go for that. If you get bloodwork at the end of hcg, the only useful test would be total T. All you would need to know is if your balls are working. All others are useless bc everything is gonna be out of whack.
Ok thank you for detailed replies,
I am already more then 3 week on Hcg only.
I posted this messages before on other forums but there I got not much good replies, then I found this forum and read about the restart method and started it.
I’m happy to get these replies from you guys and you seem experts in this.
I will do the bloodwork in a few days when I am 4 weeks on Hcg only.
Stupidly enough I didn’t do bloodwork before trt and during trt.
after 4 weeks Hcg, is it in my case also enough to test only total testosteron (as I don’t have any previous results to compare with)
big mistake to not do bloodwork before this is also the reason I want to stop first and decide later if need to do trt (and if Neede will do it on a responsible way)
I’m just afraid about this because I’m new to it
If I post the results for bloodwork here, can you guys help me out and tell me something about it ?
If your bloodwork only includes total testosterone you will know everything you need to know for the task in hand which is to determine whether you are primary or secondary.
TT, FT, SHBG & E2 will give you a very basic, cost effective but informative snapshot of how your body is responding to your current HCG mono-therapy.
You do not know what the future holds and this information can be very useful should you need to go back on TRT, HCG or a combination of the two.
When you do recover your HPTA and get blood work, you’ll know how close to your natural levels you were with your current dose of HCG. This could be useful for choosing a maintenance dose for HCG in a TRT protocol.