T Nation

Stopped T After 2 Years On, 1st Bloods Done. What’s Next?


#1

Hey there

First of all I’d like to say that I will do a more thorough blood work later on this summer. I kept this one minimal for reasons below.

Context: I’ve been injecting T non stop for 2 years. Was 27yo when I got started, turning 30 in 3 weeks (damn).
Mostly T around 150mg/wk with short anabolic cycles every other month or so, 4-6wk on 6-8wk off always. My goal was to reach 6’3 230lbs 10% fat and I came a tiny bit short of it, 225 10.5% on one of my DXAs iirc. That was close… eventually I decided that I was done with it all and it was time to hop off.

As a natural I had total T 800 ng/dl free T 1% and e2 10 pg/ml. Also high cholesterol and low insulin, so it’s rather clear my low carb diet wasn’t suiting me at all at the time, but it took me a lot of personal research lately to get a better grasp. I’ve eventually halved my LDL in the process.

I’ve done TRT for 3 of the first 4 months of 2018, and a 4 weeks trest*tbol run in March. Last injection April 2nd.

Then I ran this PCT:

  • HCG 500iu April 2,4,6,8,10,12th
  • Nolva (doses PER WEEK) 60/60/40/30/20/10/5 last quarter tab was on May 27th. I went with my conviction that SERMs are mega overdosed on forums and even on Pubmed quite often.
  • Asin 6.25mg at most 2x per week, mostly because I’ve had a blood test on TRT where T and e2 were 600/60, and a couple other bloods on trt where SHBG was low. So I figured I’d benefit from a bit of AI.

Been feeling pretty good generally besides a noticeable drop at the gym - no big deal. Libido is back to what it was pre-TRT; very low, but very functional when I’m with a girl.

Bloods drawn on June 6th so 10 days after the last 5mg of Nolva:
- Total T 346 ng/dl RANGE {264-916}
- LH 2.9 mIU/ml RANGE {1.7-8.6}
- FSH 3.4 mIU/ml RANGE {1.5-12.4}
- E2 10.8 pg/ml RANGE {7.6-42.6}

I think using clomid now might def be a good idea to support the HPTA some more? I’d guess that mid-high range LH and FSH would yield mid-range T and E2 at least. I also have torem on hand and I’m thinking of combining both doing 12.5/30mg eod or e3d.

What would you suggest?


#2

Are your sure your estrogen was that low naturally?

The e2 numbers you have thrown around are scary. I hope you aren’t keeping it that low.

When my e2 was 17 (on the same test you are using) I felt like DOG SHIT. I was artificially lowering it though. should be in a good ratio to test. As an example, im on TRT, have a TT of 1100, and my e2 is 29-30.

Low E2 will be detrimental to your recovery.

(sorry I cant comment on your PCT issue, but get the e2 thing under control)


#3

Of course 100% naturally.

I remember how I tried clomid as a monotherapy for a month prior to injecting T. 25mg eod which is probably too much in and of itself? Idk. Anyways e2 was still under 20 even with clomid.

I guess I’m used to it at this point. My buddy told me to supplement dbol lol.


#4

@alphagunner I found this from 2 months prior to my first injection of T

Total T LC/MS 806 ng/dl RANGE {348-1197}
Free T 8.5 pg/ml LOW RANGE {9.3-26.5}
- LH 5.1 mIU/ml RANGE {1.7-8.6}
- FSH 8.0 mIU/ml RANGE {1.5-12.4}
-Estradiol 10.1 pg/ml RANGE {7.6-42.6}

This lead me to try clomid before getting told “just do T” by some randoms on Reddit who were also telling me I wasn’t even trying when I wasn’t happy with my strength gains.

On the other hand e2 has always come back a bit too high when I was “on”. Last bloods back in March I was on 100mg of Test per week thinking I’d need no AI at this dose… total T 600 e2 60. WTH.


#5

Have you ever had your SHBG checked? that’s key


#6

Came back low on TRT a couple times, and e2 was higher than aimed

Albumin being in range SHBG can only be high with free T around 1% in 2017. Since e2 is mostly formed from free T I’ve come to think that e2 and SHBG are inversely correlated which is what would make sense from a physiological standpoint.

And also for many others apparently; view below

negative relationship between SHBG levels and the E2/T ratio

But at the same time my T isn’t high enough so I don’t want to have SHBG low now. It all screams “use clomid” to me ha.


#7

High TT and low free test is always high SHBG.

Clomid increases SHBG.


#9

Bump with updates. I’ve been taking the following bi weekly:

  • toremifene 30mg
  • Zinc 15mg, dhea 25mg, Kelp
    Those were taken the day before the bloodwork.

Also aromasin 6.25mg per week. Last was 6 days before the bloodwork.

Bloods #2 / 14 weeks post “TRT+”

- Total T 420 ng/dl RANGE {250-900}
- free T 9.2 pg/ml RANGE {8.7-54.7}
- LH 4.1 mIU/ml RANGE {1.7-8.6}
- FSH 3.9 mIU/ml RANGE {1.5-12.4}
- E2 19 pg/ml RANGE {7.6-42.6}

Also: LDL down to 106 whilst HDL and Trigs stayed stable at 45 and 89. I keep lowering cholesterol so that’s good news. Now it’s time to eat more I think, the total and free Testosterone will benefit a lot from it.

Food staples:

  • 1 pound of extra lean chicken/beef/cod a day
  • lentils
  • shellfish, mushrooms
  • lots of vegetables (spinach!), a bit of yams and basmati
  • whole fruits, oats, coconut and vegan protein blend periworkout

I’m dropping the toremifene since the doses and frequency were very low and gonna stick to asin 6.25 every week +DHEA,Zinc,Kelp on Monday-Wednesday-Friday rather than biweekly. Feeling great overall, next bloodwork shall be this Fall, not really stressing it anymore.


#10

Have you done the blood test since the one you mention in your recent post? If so , what is your test, e, shbg results and overall feeling? What was your hair growth level on the cycle (including facial hair)?


#11

Feeling like a god but I’ve been taking proviron biweekly. Actually got it drawn last Saturday morning. Waiting for the results’


#12

It’s a bit strange according to the description of your overall wellbeing before the trt (I mean depression, libido, low free test and sky high shbg). Hence, trt seems to help you without causing any damage to your health. By the way, screw lab numbers as long as you feel great.


#13

Weekly SERMs with a bit of DHT absolutely help. My diet is also much better.

I have to say I was feeling great in July, but not so much in August/September. Compared to these days… 5/10 going to 9/10. 100,000% agreed on screwing hormonal blood numbers. They don’t tell the whole cell story.


#14

So bloods came back… mind you, I had a shitty night of sleep the night before.

Bloods #3 / Had been doing Clomid 25mg, Proviron 12.5mg, Cialis 5mg and MK677 50mg, all of those e5d, for 1.5 month

- Total T 450 ng/dl RANGE {250-900}
- free T 10.2 pg/ml RANGE {8.7-54.7}
- LH 8.1 mIU/ml RANGE {1.7-8.6}
- FSH 7.9 mIU/ml RANGE {1.5-12.4}
- E2 29 pg/ml RANGE {7.6-42.6}

Also vitamin D: 93 ng/mL! Haha ready for the Canadian winter. Was at 59 in March already.

So Clomid didn’t improve things much on paper compared to Nolvadex. I think there’s little point trying to go above those free T levels, I may have a slight degree of BnC-induced primary hypogonadism, or too much stress/cortisol, I don’t think it matters much anyway. It’s all good on Proviron.

I’m going to switch SERM use for DHEA (same 25mg, e5d), and won’t do bloods before next Spring now.


#15

what is your diet and training plan now? it looks like two years on trt messed your hormons. according to what you wrote in previous posts your total t before trt was quite high.


#16

But the free T was 1%, whereas now it’s 2.5%. Actually higher than back in the days. So I don’t think total T is relevant anymore.
Diet is my standard high carb 60/20/20% macros, training is 531 with dumbbell / machines / bodyweight assistance rather than high barbell volume. Just taking it easy… I don’t believe I have much left in terms of natural BBing gains.


#17

According to what you wrote in your post from 2016 your free was between 2-8 pg/ml. So pretty much the same as now. How is your shbg level these days?


#18

Well, going from 1% in 2016 to 2% free Test is progress to me. I don’t think there’s any benefit having high total T naturally when it’s obviously a compensatory mechanism for high SHBG.

I wish I had SHBG levels checked at the time, but they could be guesstimated. Way high then > normal now.

The only time I got SHBG blood tests was on potent AAS, and that came back low obviously. Been trying to raise them ever since with success.