T Nation

Stop the Pound for Pound Anderson Silva Love

I know this has been discussed before, but now I think its just time to end this ridiculous debate. I’m getting tired of all the Anderson Silva love at the top of the lb for lb. charts. No disrespect to him, I love his striking, but IMO doesn’t even deserve consideration for the top 3. Top 10 yes. Fedor is so far ahead of everyone I can’t believe its even a debate. He’s ahead of Silva for the following reasons, except for #5.

1-Fedor has never lost except for that cut, but let’s not count that too much. Boxing fans know all about padded stats.

2-Fedor has beaten the best in the world time after time, at their own game. He deafeatd both PRIDE champs: CroCop, considered by far the best HVWT striker. He outgrappled Noguiera when Nog was the unquestioned best HVWT sub guy.

3- He has beaten 3 UFC champs in 6:01 combined (Arlovski, Sylvia, Coleman). That is unbelievable

5-He has been rocked only once, by Fujita

6-He’s been in trouble on the ground only once, the kimura, by Hunt (who knows jack sh#t about subs)

7-Silva has had terrible opponents for most of his career, except for Franklin

8-Fedor always advances and always looks to finish. He doesn’t hide. He plays to his opponents strength. That’s incredible in and of itself.

9- Finally, he’s a HVWT. That means he’s in much more danger of being KO’d with one punch

I put him ahead of GSP because of reasons #1, 5,6,8. He also has a granite chin. If GSP outstrikes Alves, instead of outgrappling him,and with a few more quality wins against top strikers, he’ll get close.

He’s already outgrappled Fitch and Penn.

Miguel Torres is close behind as well. Though #s7 and #4 are unanswered, since so many of the lighter guys fight in Dream.

Would have to agree,

My problem has to do with people’s perception of him as a great striker, he is a good counterstriker, but as apperant from his last two fights, people are starting to understand he isn’t a great stalker or initiator, which in my book knocks you down the rungs quite a bit.

But I will stop the hate. He won and as such deserves respect.

Just stop saying he is like this phenomenal striker people. really. Wow he is an accurate counterstriker and will then finish. can someone name a fight he won in which wasn’t his counterstriking that finished the fight or allowed him to finish the fight.

Please stop the love for P4P ranking itself. It’s overrated…and getting old.

It’s fun and interesting…but its “importance” is held higher than it should be.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
can someone name a fight he won in which wasn’t his counterstriking that finished the fight or allowed him to finish the fight.

[/quote]

Care to name a fight where he was outstruck?

[quote]slimjim wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
can someone name a fight he won in which wasn’t his counterstriking that finished the fight or allowed him to finish the fight.

Care to name a fight where he was outstruck?[/quote]

Thanks for helping me make another point with the level of striking in the UFC and MMA in general.

Rich Franklin was set up to come and do 2 weeks with us on striking and clinch work before his second match with silva. But someone in his camp thought he would be better served putting that time into his conditioning.

Now I can’t speak from ground aspect, that is not my thing, but from a purely striking aspect I really just don’t see what all the hype is about.

Quit the stupid Sherdog threads

hold on what’s sherdog, I’m confused???

apbt55 wrote:
“can someone name a fight he won in which wasn’t his counterstriking that finished the fight or allowed him to finish the fight.”

Are you kidding? Rich Franklin twice with knees. Do you guys even watch fights? Yushin Okami with a fucking kick from his back. Tony Fricklund with an elbow uppercut. This is why anderson silva is the best lb for lb. Just cause the guy has a few slow fights does NOT take that from him. I mean he went to the ground twice with leites and DIDN’T get submitted.

Fedor? Please don’t even get me started. He’s fought washed up UFC former champs who couldn’t compete in the UFC any more. And the old pride heavy weights he’s fought? Seriously? Nog and Cro-cop? Didn’t both of them get destroyed in the UFC? Why yes they did!

Also did you watch the Fedor vs. Arlovski fight SonnyS? He was getting torn up, and at least one of those punches made him wobbly.

“8-Fedor always advances and always looks to finish. He doesn’t hide. He plays to his opponents strength. That’s incredible in and of itself.”

Are you serious? That’s the most ignorant statement I’ve ever heard. And he doesn’t play to his opponents strength, he just doesn’t have any wrestling, or any real take down skill. He throws hard and has a strong chin, that’s what makes Fedor good. Oh and his SAWEET ground game.

Solid post you have your facts in order.Im not a fan of Silva and argue this subject with my buddies alot.Silva’s last two fights have been jokes,Cote wouldnt engage and leites kept going down probably trying to bait Silva.Here is my opinion, even if either of these fighters wouldnt fight or engage, Silva still didnt finish them or even do much damage.

So if you took the champs and past champs of recently,GSP,Hughes,Franklin,Liddell,Couture,Sherk,Penn and Arlovski.None of them let guys dance around the cage and not fight.All there opponents either won or got there asses kicked.

Silva seems to be tacking a different aproach lately, Which is win by not winning.

Beershoes: clueless

[quote]horsepuss wrote:
Which is win by not winning.[/quote]

Wow.How exactly do you win by not winning?

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
horsepuss wrote:
Which is win by not winning.

Wow.How exactly do you win by not winning?

[/quote]

The same way you fuck by not fucking or run by not running

The problem with the comparisons between Silva’s fights and those of other champions is that the other champs haven’t really fought a guy who would just run and flop on his ass or, barring that, are ground guys. Silva’s a counterstriker. This is will happen if you get a guy who doesn’t want to engage in a standup fight and won’t press for a takedown.

If Leites wanted it on the ground, it was on him to make it happen. Maia wants it on the ground, to get it there he doesn’t just fall on his ass, he clinches the guy and jumps guard or takes him down. Leites’ strategy was straight up bullshit.

[quote]Beershoes wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
“can someone name a fight he won in which wasn’t his counterstriking that finished the fight or allowed him to finish the fight.”

Are you kidding? Rich Franklin twice with knees. Do you guys even watch fights? Yushin Okami with a fucking kick from his back. Tony Fricklund with an elbow uppercut. This is why anderson silva is the best lb for lb. Just cause the guy has a few slow fights does NOT take that from him. I mean he went to the ground twice with leites and DIDN’T get submitted.

Fedor? Please don’t even get me started. He’s fought washed up UFC former champs who couldn’t compete in the UFC any more. And the old pride heavy weights he’s fought? Seriously? Nog and Cro-cop? Didn’t both of them get destroyed in the UFC? Why yes they did!

Also did you watch the Fedor vs. Arlovski fight SonnyS? He was getting torn up, and at least one of those punches made him wobbly.

“8-Fedor always advances and always looks to finish. He doesn’t hide. He plays to his opponents strength. That’s incredible in and of itself.”

Are you serious? That’s the most ignorant statement I’ve ever heard. And he doesn’t play to his opponents strength, he just doesn’t have any wrestling, or any real take down skill. He throws hard and has a strong chin, that’s what makes Fedor good. Oh and his SAWEET ground game. [/quote]

Do you know what counterstriking is
(not trying to antagonize anymore)? you are commenting on the finish not the how he got to the dominant role or win. With franklin he used his head movement and countering to get into the clinch in the first place and even in the second fight you could see a little bit that Franklin figured out if you don’t initiate he has a hard time setting stuff up by initiating it.

If I slip a punch an knock you out, it is still counter striking, I am saying he is not good at initiating he can’t just come at you unless your stand up is very poor. And not to be mean, but Rich Franklin’s clinch is not his strong point. honestly if we are talking technique his stand isn’t really that good. His conditioning was phenomenal though. He is an animal in that respect.

Silva’s striking actually reminds a lot of Machida, hum wonder why?

I just have a problem with the whole decision thing to, to me if you can’t finish someone you didn’t beat them, but that isn’t the rule and isn’t how things are done.

[quote]slimjim wrote:
The problem with the comparisons between Silva’s fights and those of other champions is that the other champs haven’t really fought a guy who would just run and flop on his ass or, barring that, are ground guys. Silva’s a counterstriker. This is will happen if you get a guy who doesn’t want to engage in a standup fight and won’t press for a takedown.

If Leites wanted it on the ground, it was on him to make it happen. Maia wants it on the ground, to get it there he doesn’t just fall on his ass, he clinches the guy and jumps guard or takes him down. Leites’ strategy was straight up bullshit.[/quote]

honestly if he had a good coach, there some good takedowns off leg kicks open, but my guess is he used the same team to prepare as for every other fight. IF he really wanted it on the ground he should have changed up his coaches a bit.

like I know my ground game is horrible now working at the gracie school on actually improving it instead of going just to learn to get back to my feet.

In my opinion if silva wants to keep the ufc happy he is going to need to work on engaging and being the initiator.

I don’t know if you guys follow boxing but it’s a similar story to Roy Jones. You can’t blame Silva for lack of competition when he’s willing to fight everybody in his class. Some people at their peak are just 10 times better than everybody else and makes them look better.

He can do what Roy Jones did and search for a fight for him to lose but in this world your guarenteed to find what your looking for. The guys that have beat Roy in the last few years are not good boxers and at Roys peak would’ve got their asses handed to them, but they look 10x’s better strictly for beating Roy specifically after he played games with hisweight.

Compare it to any sport if someone watches Usain Bolt race they’ll just say the current crop sucks, but truth is he’s just that much better. For someone has been fighting for YEARS if people say they are the pound for pound best fighter and your comeback is they never fought anybody then it’s probably true they’re the pound for pound best.

It takes alot of work skill and talent to make it look like theres no competition.

As far as playing around in the ring, I didn’t see this last fight but the against Cote it looked like he was bored after the first 10 seconds. Not like he didn’t have what it took to KO him.

I didn’t see Silva’s early fights so I can’t argue if he is the lb for lb best, but weak competition and toying with somebody are weak arguments against it.

apbt55… watch the fights, then open your mouth. So by your definition if someone throws a punch and I happen to punch them sometime there after, I’ve effectively counter struck? This is lame, some of you guys clearly have no clue about the game. It’s sad really.

At the risk of taking heat. in my opinion the whole idea of pound for pound best is an oxymoron. Because the very basis of weight classes make it impossible to know for sure.

Fedor is a great heavyweight for sure, but he can only do what a heavy weight does. He’s never going to be as quick or explosive as a welterweight. And they in turn will never be as powerful.

And in Andersons defense. He’s the champ, he doesn’t have to finish, he has to win. Is that stupid? Yes, but it’s also smart business

I don’t think he’s a counter puncher per se, but no he’s not a stalker and finisher. Oh and for the record neither is Fedor. He is a true master strategist who exploits the weaknesses of his opponents.

Honestly, watch his fights again. Everything he does to win is based on his opponent thinking they have the opening to win and it’s almost always at that moment when Fedor zeroes in and ends them.

Listen to his interviews. Fedor doesn’t love or possibly even like fighting. He’s good at it and it makes him money. It’s just business to him.

Now back to Anderson. In my opinion Leites ran from him. Maybe not “Caleb Starnes” ran. But he ran. And until he fights either Bisbing or rematches against Hendo. Everyone else is going to run, and that is not Andersons fault.

The man stood in the center of the ring with one arm down and the other resting on his thigh and Leites did nothing!!!

So is Anderson going to be champ for a while? Yes.

Is Fedor? yes

Can either be called P4P best? sorry no.

There’s a reason Sugar Ray Robinson is held up as an example of the pound for pound best in boxing. He won titles at four different weight classes. Well that and the 85 amateur, and 200 pro fights on his record, but anyway . . .

Until Fedor/ Anderson wins a light heavyweight MMA title, they are just great fighters. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing else.

Now if the rumored GSP/Silva fight eventually happens.

Now you are having a realisitc discussion

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
I don’t know if you guys follow boxing but it’s a similar story to Roy Jones. You can’t blame Silva for lack of competition when he’s willing to fight everybody in his class. Some people at their peak are just 10 times better than everybody else and makes them look better.

He can do what Roy Jones did and search for a fight for him to lose but in this world your guarenteed to find what your looking for. The guys that have beat Roy in the last few years are not good boxers and at Roys peak would’ve got their asses handed to them, but they look 10x’s better strictly for beating Roy specifically after he played games with hisweight.

Compare it to any sport if someone watches Usain Bolt race they’ll just say the current crop sucks, but truth is he’s just that much better. For someone has been fighting for YEARS if people say they are the pound for pound best fighter and your comeback is they never fought anybody then it’s probably true they’re the pound for pound best.

It takes alot of work skill and talent to make it look like theres no competition.

As far as playing around in the ring, I didn’t see this last fight but the against Cote it looked like he was bored after the first 10 seconds. Not like he didn’t have what it took to KO him.

I didn’t see Silva’s early fights so I can’t argue if he is the lb for lb best, but weak competition and toying with somebody are weak arguments against it.[/quote]

Even in the first round of this fight there was really no action, just two guys sizing each other up (much like the Cote fight). The thing about the Cote fight though, was that we never really got to see how that one would turn out thanks to Patrick’s injury (which obviously neither fighter anticipated nor wanted to happen).

[quote]Beershoes wrote:
apbt55… watch the fights, then open your mouth. So by your definition if someone throws a punch and I happen to punch them sometime there after, I’ve effectively counter struck? This is lame, some of you guys clearly have no clue about the game. It’s sad really.[/quote]

yeah obviously no clue. No experience whatsoever, question you seriously hold the pads to the side like that when you kick?

I am saying if you don’t engage him he doesn’t have the tools to push the fight. To engage you to stalk you to do what it takes to open you up and finish the fight.

Sorry but in my opinion if you don’t finish you really don’t win. You didn’t beat the guy.

And the TMA comment is completely right, silva and machida have trained together makes since their styles look similar, but everyone excepts machida as a boring counterstriker. Silva just got lucky up til now that he fought very aggressive fighters so he seemed like he himself was very aggressive too.