T Nation

Steroids in Teenagers: Bone Size


#1

Hey guys, bear with me since this is my first post.

I've been around T-Nation for awhile, reading articles and seeing statistics, and have only just recently made an account. Why? I want to ask you guys a pretty complex question, one that a lot of medical articles (which I have read) all dispute. I feel its maybe better to come to YOU guys, who have first hand experience with this stuff.

I like to try to do the impossible. If someone tells me something can't be done, or is genetic etc., I love to try to beat it. For instance I'm a HUGE supporter of Zithromax, the drug that doctors are now believing is the cure to asthma, a disease once thought to be a genetic, incurable condition. It gives me an adrenaline rush when I find info that seems to disprove modern science. I know, Im wierd. :slightly_smiling:

Anyway, over the past two months, I have been researching the effects of steroids in teenagers. I am 16 years old, in the middle of puberty, and look a little... younger than my peers. In the gym one day, I noticed that even though I lifted and ate more than my friend, he was much bigger than me. For some reason, it seemed like clothes simply hung and clung better to his frame. Yep guys, I had hit that wall. You guys think you have a small frame? Guys, my wrists are 5.8 inches around. Yeah. A Livestrong can slide up my entire forearm. My bones are simply far, far too slim. Accompanying the fact that I have narrow (17 in) shoulders, a shirt is like a billowing balloon. I'm also 6 ft 1. A size small shirt fits me width-wise, and down to my navel length-wise. Now I know you guys will tell me to "pack on muscle, small joints are better for asthetics, less muscle for a bigger look, etc.". I don't want this. I don't want to be thought of as the cut cross country runner. I want to be thought of as the built, broad shouldered lacrosse player.

So I set out on my quest to get bigger bones and broader shoulders, something that is considered by all, physically impossible.

I knew that larger bones and broader shoulders were secondary sexual characteristics, and are caused by androgens (ex. DHT, Test, etc.) during puberty. The reason that ectomorphs are, well, ectomorphs is due to less androgens during puberty. That is why we are typically taller with longer limbs and extremely skinny bones and narrow shoulders: androgens stimulate radial bone and horizontal growth, but fuse the longitudinal growth plates (ex. why mesomorphs end puberty early), and so without a lot of androgens, we can grow length wise for a very long time.

I bet you see where I am getting at. Yes, I am wondering the effects of androgenic steroids on bone girth and shoulder width during puberty. I am NOT looking for an increase in muscle mass through anabolic steroids, like so many teens take. Believe me, if it was just muscle gain I wanted, I would work out and eat. I hate to cheat on something that is possible, only on things that are "impossible".

Reading through medical articles on the effects of androgenic steroid use on pubertal hypogonadal mice, it seems like the entire medical community is scattershot on this. Some studies report huge radial bone mass growth, while others not none, and some even a decrease.

In human females whose growth plates are closed, they experience EVERY other virilization effect besides increase in bone mass and shoulder width (ex. they get squarer jaws, more hair, bigger hands/fingers and feet). This has made doctors believe that if these were to be taken during puberty, BEFORE the growth plates closed, body bone dimensions could be significantly altered.

Anyway, sorry for the ridiculous post. What are your thoughts on the benefits of using androgenic steroids during puberty to stimulate and increase radial bone growth and shoulder width?

And finally, I know a lot of you will say this is incredibly dangerous, you could die, mess up your endocrine system, stunt your growth, etc. First off, thank you for your concern. I am not saying I am GOING to do this. I simply want to accumulate facts and see if this COULD work. I understand the huge risks, since nothing like this has been attempted before (if it has, please send me the article!)

I seriously would love any opinions or thoughts you guys have on this. Please keep it civil and from facts, instead of opinions, since I would like everyone to learn from this.

Thanks guys.


#2

So you know there is no evidence, but want an opinion?

Wouldn't that be an opinion with no evidence behind it?


#3

However, while finding the particulars of your specific question to be unanswerable for the above reason, and there is also the consideration that I'm not going to advise a minor how to use anabolic steroids, I think it's fair to say that you're clearly an intelligent guy who has put in some diligence towards understanding what would be involved.

Accordingly I will leave it at, if hormonal levels are tested (including LH) and kept within the normal range, but at optimized values including with regard to estradiol, and synthetic hormones are not used then I would suppose this to be unlikely to be harmful.

Whether it would accomplish a fundamental transformation of skeletal structure is another matter entirely.

With regard to the developmental effect of low androgen but estrogen no higher than in males with normal androgen and possibly lower, possibly eunuchoid habitus would be an indicator of this effect. However it would be an unwarranted assumption to conlude that if androgen level is normal, then yet more androgen would have the same relative effect as between abnormally low androgen levels and normal levels.


#4

Thank you Bill! Excellent response!

Yes, that is the reason that these clinical trials are conducted: they wished to see if hypogonadal rats with orchiectomy were able to, with the help of exogenous androgens, "push" their skeletal structures towards a more sexual dimorphic skeleton for their male sex, e.x. develop the broad structure, etc. I guess just the next step is to see if a normal small rat, with the help of exogenous androgens, is able to experience explosive radial bone growth while in puberty.

And once again, since I bet this a concern for many of you: please, don't think of giving me advice on this as "advising a minor on how to use anabolic steroids." Believe me guys, I know how to use them. I read hundreds of cycle logs and guides, on tens of tens of different websites and books and medical journals. For this purpose, please think of me as an adult. I am not saying I WILL do this, I just want to know if it is feasible.


#5

Dude, your wrist size doesn't mean you can't have a thick, broad build. My wrists are just barely a quarter inch larger than yours, and I've managed to build up to a relatively lean 215-220lbs, and I don't plan on stopping there. You have definitely not hit a wall if a small shirt fits you in any way at all. Sorry, can't really comment on your question, just wanted to point out that your bone size doesn't doom you to a lifetime of looking like a cross country runner.


#6

Thanks Tattoo. Sorry mate, I didn't mean that I couldn't develop a much more muscular build like you. I fully intend to do this! I am asking this question, in order to try to build a better skeletal base to pack the meat on to. Once again, I know that smaller joints look excellent for bodybuilding, but I'm not lifting to be a body builder: I'm lifting for girls. I want to not have to take my shirt off in order for people to say "oh, he's not that small".

Thank you for your input however!


#7

Okay, I'll explain why this is a bad idea. I did a cycle of trenbolone/testosterone with only a TRT level of testosterone, to replace my natural testosterone production. I would have used only trenbolone, but every cycle needs testosterone. Testosterone is metabolized into at least 10 other hormones, which are necessary for health. The synthetic steroids (every steroid but testosterone) can't metabolize into other hormones. Those hormones are especially necessary for the proper growth of the penis and testicles. In some parts of the penis, testosterone doesn't even have any effect!

During my tren/test cycle I used 5mg of nolvadex and .5 mg of letrozole. Even when using these drugs, I still developed mild gyno. I thought because according to my research, my estrogen should have been low, I would be okay. But, in real life, hormones are very difficult to control. If you try taking steroids, your estrogen levels will probably be high no matter what. They will also be high after your cycle.

The risk/benefit ratio to this idea isn't good. There's a lot of risk and very little benefit. You will probably stop growing. I seriously doubt taking steroids will do anything for your bone growth. Those studies were probably done at 10x the human dose. You also risk not developing genetials correctly. You might end up infertile if you don't wait until you're done growing. You need adult genitials to safely take steroids.

Most of the stuff you're talking about is set at birth anyway. You can google "little hercules." He's a kid who had been on steroids since he was a five years old. Look at a picture of him as a kid and one of him as an adult. You'll see he looks the same as he did when he was young. He's also like 5'5". Steroids didn't turn him into Superman. Another example is Lee Priest.

You should be afraid to do steroids because of the feminizing effects, not the other way around! Start lifting weights and eat as much as you can. That will have a real effect on your growth. You probably look like a normal 16 year old anyway. Your body isn't some sort of science expierement! Post a picture, and I can see if your proportions are off, if you want.


#8

Jesus christ

You consistently post complete bullshit or at the very least blatant conjecture.

People have seemed to ignore it because it doesnt look like you intend to harm with your posts but this one takes the cake.

Stop posting shit you make up in your own mind. Stop posting your opinion of misinterpreted facts.

The fact that you also ask very noobish questions in other threads is just further support for why you shouldnt be speculating about unique scenarios.


#9


#10

You copied and pasted a random study. Why

Do you see the "report post" button at the bottom left of each post? Do you know what it does?


#11

Lover, while I did know about little Hercules, thank you for the info! I believe however L.H. was using far more ANABOLIC steroids versus androgenic steroids, ex. more muscle and stunted growth versus larger bone structure/broader shoulders.

However guys, a huge update on my quest.

Flurbiprofen, a compound once thought to aid in easing arthritis pain, has been tested on growing rats. It produces EXPLOSIVE radial bone growth, some rats bones growing by almost 30-40%! And even in the older rats, BMD has increased by 200% in these trials. It even makes the bones grow longer in growing rats (height increase)!

The Holy Grail to bone growth? That's for us to test, since we are humans rather than rats.

The best part is Flurbiprofen is legal, and doesn't shrink your nuts while on a cycle of it! Woohoo!

I would feel much safer for my endocrine system development on this!

Sorry if I am jumping the gun on this, I'm just so excited I found these trials!

Opinions?

TRIALS:
Young Rats:

Old Rats:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4Y-4C7V8FK-Y5&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1988&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1483285812&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=25476d09535c4722ed61ce9ce4d3ca09&searchtype=a