T Nation

Steroids for High Endurance and Strength

naturally have you tried beta-alanine and creatine?
I also take accelerade i got it at gnc its a pre-workout that enchances performance with the carb ratio.I use albuterol for excercise induced asthma I take 2 puff and that helps especially when im doing intervals.have you thought about a speed parachute in your work-out?

[quote]breaker54 wrote:
STACK
TREN Winstrol
Week1-(150mg) (none)
W2-(150mg) (150mg)
W3-(150mg) (150mg)
W4-(150mg) (150mg)
W5-(225mg) (150mg)
W6-(225mg) (150mg)
W7-(225mg) (150mg)
W8-(225mg) (100mg)
Ingredients
2(10ml)bottles Tren 75mg/ml
20 ml injectable stanozolol

got it off anabolics i was thinking of trying this to get my 2mile under 10mns[/quote]

Did you really just post a ‘stack’ you found somewhere? You could have at least posted your reasons for this particular stack (why the pyramiding dose, why the particular combo etc…) or even better would be to post something you have experience with…

I say this because it is your first post and regurgitating information can turn into an irresponsible habit.

Tren is a very bad idea for a runner of any kind. It causes bronchial constriction, and shortness of breath.

[quote]viceral90 wrote:
To anyone who can help,

I am in the midst of a rut I cannot get myself out of. This rut being the plateau my body has reached. The intensity and expectations I hold my physical condition to are considered by all astronomical and for lack of a better word ridiculous.

I cannot hold back, I will not tone it down, and I refuse to “give up cardio and lift more weight.”

With all that out of the way, I want to turn to something that can help me out. Steroids being those things. I am a private person, I have read books and from that experience it seems as though every steroid book author is out to convert the worlds’ athletes into thinking that roids cause acne, balding, and a laundry list of problems.

Even though there is no scientific evidence to support any of the negative claims, its the only thing one has to read to keep discretion.

Get to the point man! Well I am an avid runner, swimmer, and mountaineer. I also have a deep love for lifting, I want to be stronger. I do NOT want to be a big guy, I think for me 190 would be top weight.

I want my running to get faster than it has ever been, I want to be stronger than I have ever been, and I want to have the power of Michael Phelps in the water.

What gear could I use, what cycles, and at what dosage. I am a “newbie” if you will. I have thick skin and can take some criticism, I will be responding with “stupid” questions.

Thanks to all who respond. No names, discretion is much obliged.

Viceral
[/quote]

First of all, I’m 235 and I can hike, rock climb, and mountaineer just fine. No endurance problems there. I hate running just for running’s sake though, so I avoid it unless I’m playing a game that involves hoops, bases, endzones, or paintballs.

Point being, it’s how you train that makes most of the difference in how you perform, not your weight—David Boston can sprint like a maniac at 250 lbs of muscle.

I would say this–make sure your joints are ok. A rapid increase in bodyweight can play havoc with the joints that are used to running and carrying less weight. That doesn’t mean the extra muscle is a bad thing, it just means take care of yourself and be careful while trying to acclimate yourself to a new bodyweight.

Of course, running like a maniac while doing other endurance exercises while on steroids is going to slow down your rate of weight gain, so the problems may not appear at all. Just something to watch out for.

Maybe 190 IS right for you, I don’t know. I’m just sayin’, don’t sweat the performance numbers. You’ll get what you train and EAT for. No need to put a roof on your bodyweight as long as you can still do the things you love well. I found personally when I hit 190 lbs that I looked small when I thought I’d be content. I look much better now than I did then.

That being said, I would eat to gain anyway. I don’t know what your starting bodyweight is, but if 190 lbs is 15 or more lbs away, eat everything in sight regardless.

First, because to get the best results out of the gear you need to be a) training harder b) training more intensely and c) recovering better. You have to fuel your recovery if you want to make strength gains.

Also, you WILL lose some weight after said cycle, so you should aim to overshoot your bodyweight goal by 5-10 lbs.

[quote]sniper1 wrote:
Tren is a very bad idea for a runner of any kind. It causes bronchial constriction, and shortness of breath.[/quote]

Second this. Tren’s horrible effects on endurance are well noted by those who’ve used it. A tren/winny cycle is a terrible terrible idea.

That said, breaker’s question on beta-alanine is legitimate—you should be using that stuff.

Points-- 4.1% BMI?? Do you mean body fat? BMI is not a measurement done in percents, but percentiles–as a comparison to the rest of the people in a certain age/gender bracket.

I don’t like the water buoyancy test method anyway, but that’s neither here nor there. The big point is, at 4.1% bf, if that’s accurate, I’m not entirely surprised you got rhabdo.

The body’s already pretty damn stressed if you’re at 4.1% bf, hardcore endurance runs could put an undue burden on an already stressed system, leading to what you went through.

PARTICULARLY if you’re undergoing extremely stressful exercise while simultaneously being poorly hydrated. [u]Get your damn water and electrolytes while training![/u] And this might be a case where I would actually try to increase body fat % levels a little.

I don’t mean eat crap per se, just be careful. Once again, that assumes the water test was accurate.

I am going to advocate Equipoise (boldenone). It has effects on strength levels (1 of your goals), vascularity (looking good is always great), and increases red blood cell count (better endurance, similar though less pronounced effect to the drug EPO, which I’m sure you are familiar with, having been a heavily used drug in endurance circles).

Also, it tends to increase appetite. This is a huge plus for hard training people who need the calories. In addition, it is not known as a drug to put a ton of mass on your frame. And doesn’t have terrible effects on your joints like Winny is known for.

ALSO, I wouldn’t worry about using drugs such as Test and other “bulking” drugs if you lost THAT MUCH weight through rhabdo. You’re at 158. that’s 30 lbs away from 190. There’s almost no chance you’ll top 190 if you went ahead and used test or something similar from your present condition–in fact, I’d say it would probably help more than anything you to get back your hard earned muscle.

There’s nothing wrong with the things Westclock or Brook proposed. Or the shorter oral cycle idea. I just think it’d be more effective to go with at least Equipoise

To all thanks again for all the help,

Sorry for the delayed posting, however I have been incredibly busy with work and such. The copy and pasted cycle I am NOT going to do without a few first hand experiences, thanks for the help but I’d rather be here looking like a moron asking all the newb questions then just taking the copy and paste version and be about my marry way.

I read in about 3 different places that Winny is incredible hard on the joints. Just because a sprinter took the drugs does not mean it is for sprinters (I know I’m new but, that makes sense). Tren I have also read is really hard on your body. Again I am not interested in gaining the weight or looking the part, I want to be the part.

Beta-Alanine, no I have not ever researched it nor have I really heard of it to be honest with you. I am researching it now as I type. With Creatine is this effective? How Effective is it? Is their a specific brand I should get?

Aragon thanks for excellent input. Will will do some indepth research on Equipoise (boldenone) for my own knowledge. So far I am slowly building a template that is right for me. The 4.1% BMI is my body fat level…it was all due to diet and ego. The lower my bmi the faster and lighter I seem to get. Reading the last sentence I realize that I might be partially retarded.

I am a huge Mark Twight fan (I.E Gym Jones), those were the work outs I was doing. Along with some stuff from Joe Defranco (WestSide for Skinny Bastards). It was working on the gym side of things, however I was not eating for improvement. I was eating to get leaner, I didn’t get any stronger but I got a helluva lot faster. In the end I can monday night quarter back myself, but I realize now I was an idiot for doing it. It’s time to eat the asshole out of a cow (not really eat the asshole), lift, and sleep.

Any other advice guys would be great, thanks again everyone.

Viceral

[quote]viceral90 wrote:
To all thanks again for all the help,

Sorry for the delayed posting, however I have been incredibly busy with work and such. The copy and pasted cycle I am NOT going to do without a few first hand experiences, thanks for the help but I’d rather be here looking like a moron asking all the newb questions then just taking the copy and paste version and be about my marry way.

I read in about 3 different places that Winny is incredible hard on the joints. Just because a sprinter took the drugs does not mean it is for sprinters (I know I’m new but, that makes sense). Tren I have also read is really hard on your body. Again I am not interested in gaining the weight or looking the part, I want to be the part.

Beta-Alanine, no I have not ever researched it nor have I really heard of it to be honest with you. I am researching it now as I type. With Creatine is this effective? How Effective is it? Is their a specific brand I should get?

Aragon thanks for excellent input. Will will do some indepth research on Equipoise (boldenone) for my own knowledge. So far I am slowly building a template that is right for me. The 4.1% BMI is my body fat level…it was all due to diet and ego. The lower my bmi the faster and lighter I seem to get. Reading the last sentence I realize that I might be partially retarded. I am a huge Mark Twight fan (I.E Gym Jones), those were the work outs I was doing. Along with some stuff from Joe Defranco (WestSide for Skinny Bastards). It was working on the gym side of things, however I was not eating for improvement. I was eating to get leaner, I didn’t get any stronger but I got a helluva lot faster. In the end I can monday night quarter back myself, but I realize now I was an idiot for doing it. It’s time to eat the asshole out of a cow (not really eat the asshole), lift, and sleep.

Any other advice guys would be great, thanks again everyone.

Viceral [/quote]

The sprinter drug is oral turinabol.

If your worried about joint health go for something more like bold, it actually has some positive effects in that area.

I dont know where the tren idea came from, thats a strength drug and has no place in cardio/respiratory or anything speed related.

[quote]viceral90 wrote:
To all thanks again for all the help,

Sorry for the delayed posting, however I have been incredibly busy with work and such. The copy and pasted cycle I am NOT going to do without a few first hand experiences, thanks for the help but I’d rather be here looking like a moron asking all the newb questions then just taking the copy and paste version and be about my marry way.

I read in about 3 different places that Winny is incredible hard on the joints. Just because a sprinter took the drugs does not mean it is for sprinters (I know I’m new but, that makes sense). Tren I have also read is really hard on your body. Again I am not interested in gaining the weight or looking the part, I want to be the part.

Beta-Alanine, no I have not ever researched it nor have I really heard of it to be honest with you. I am researching it now as I type. With Creatine is this effective? How Effective is it? Is their a specific brand I should get?

Aragon thanks for excellent input. Will will do some indepth research on Equipoise (boldenone) for my own knowledge. So far I am slowly building a template that is right for me. The 4.1% BMI is my body fat level…it was all due to diet and ego. The lower my bmi the faster and lighter I seem to get. Reading the last sentence I realize that I might be partially retarded. I am a huge Mark Twight fan (I.E Gym Jones), those were the work outs I was doing. Along with some stuff from Joe Defranco (WestSide for Skinny Bastards). It was working on the gym side of things, however I was not eating for improvement. I was eating to get leaner, I didn’t get any stronger but I got a helluva lot faster. In the end I can monday night quarter back myself, but I realize now I was an idiot for doing it. It’s time to eat the asshole out of a cow (not really eat the asshole), lift, and sleep.

Any other advice guys would be great, thanks again everyone.

Viceral [/quote]

okay not trying to make a big deal out of nothing but you DO NOT have 4.1 bmi you have a 4.1 bodyfat level. BMI is a completely different measurement of health that takes no acknowledgement of body composition… Sorry but this is has really been bugging me… Beta Alanine works very well in conjunction with creatine, I have been a big fan of about 2g pre 2gpost workout (along with creatine)

To all,

Its been a while, as of lately I have not been very proactive about training. I have been incredibly busy with my job, 13-24 hour days and that is not an overstatement. I have been running or rowing when I can and doing an all inclusive full body work out when I can (I got 3 in over two weeks).

Thanks to everyone for their posts. I did a bit of research while on the road or in the office on Beta-Alanine. Along with Creatine I think its a viable option for me, especially since it delays muscle fatigue. I’ll go with the 2gs pre and 2gs post along with Creatine. I am going to wait however to start this just until I can give it a fair shot. I don’t want to sell myself short because of a heinously busy work schedule.

So back to Anabolics, I have also been doing a little research on anabolics as well after being schooled so well on here I wanted to make my teachers proud. I firmly agree with the 6 weeks of orals although what I would rather just to anavar for 8 weeks like bonez was talking about. Anyone concur?

I have heard Arimidex by its lonesome or in combination with a steroid can actually provide a lot of positive results. Thats why I included it. I did know that var and winny don’t aromatize but doesn’t it also help out aside from being an inhibitor.

I have to say after all the reading I have been doing, winny is probably not for me. My joints are my life. If I can’t swim, run, or lift then I’m worthless for my job. Everyone I have read about on forums cited massive joint pain and said that running was incredibly hard on their bodies. If I am being a fag by all means “school that ass.”

Equipoise is what I want as well, I liked Westclock and Aragon’s posts about this. It increases rbc and helps create quality strength gains.

Thanks to all, and yes I meant 4.1% body fat.

Viceral

Kind of late getting into this discussion, but what about the old advice of “stick to Test for one’s first cycle”?

For many people who are already training hard, the limiting factor is overtraining…you can only do so many more workouts, or add so much more intensity before it becomes counterproductive and you are breaking tissue down at the same rate as you are building it up.

It only takes a relatively small amount of Test to tip the balance the other way, reduce catabolism and result in some nice gains…mostly from the ability to work harder/longer/more frequently than from the anabolic effects of the hormone.

I am thinking along the lines of 100mg Test-E E3D, eat well and workout like a madman. It will give you a good base from which to make future mods depending upon your response. First-timers can get some pretty good results from fairly modest first cycles, but you only get one first cycle, so plan it well.

I think its funny that some first timers want to stick with orals because it somehow seems safer, when the opposite is actually true. Might feel kind of weird first few times you poke yourself, but doesn’t take too long before you get used to it.

Pretty high rate of counterfeiting for Anavar, so good luck with that …to some extent true for just about everything, but you can always count on good old ‘cow pellets’.

Whoever suggested Tren, given our goals, obviously has never done it.

Finally, I know the board sponsors make quite a bit of money selling all kinds of supps, so apologies to them, but all the Beta Alanine, Creatine, Tribulus, pro-hormonebull, anti-aromatase bullshit in the world is not going to get you 1/100 of the gains of one good cycle of Test (and will end up costing just about as much).

If you want to do it, do it, but you don’t sound like a halfassed kind of guy, so don’t waste your time with all that oher bullshit.

Good luck.

[quote]testolius wrote:
Kind of late getting into this discussion, but what about the old advice of “stick to Test for one’s first cycle”?

Good luck.[/quote]

True, test only could be a good cycle. But given the endurance goals and the long running/swimming sessions the OP is going to be using, I thought it would be really more beneficial to add something that will increase RBC count for better oxygen utilization.

That’s why we recommended it. Also, EQ may help increase his appetite, which is a very big concern for someone having lost that much muscle mass and already training extremely hard on endurance events. Test + Eq would probably be a really nice idea.

Well it’s true that the Beta-alanine and creatine won’t give you even a small fraction of the gains that you could get with AAS, but they’re good in and of their own right as supplements to include, whether on or off.

I personally love them. I think a large part of the reason people don’t get good results with beta-alanine is either 1) they’re not training hard enough (not the OP’s case) or 2) they’re not taking the right doses of beta A or are not consistent with their dosing. beta A has to be taken religiously for a while, and the frequent dosing schedule can cause compliance issues.

The counterfeiting concern is a major one for Anavar. That’s a big reason I wouldn’t bother with it. could be useful if you had the money and a good confirmed source, but…

Anyone know what viceral90 decided to do?
If I was him I would stick to a hrt dose of test and maybe a small dose of EQ if he was running the cycle for a long time.

I’m not sure if creatine is the best idea. It causes cramping in many endurance athletes. You might want to stick with the Beta-alanine.

As far as the good stuff, I’d personally recommend looking into: Test, Primo, Anavar, Tbol and maybe EQ. Of course, not all at once!

To all,

It’s been awhile since my last post. Thanks for all the input and interest in the subject. This is a topic I could not find on any other forum so it is exciting to me that people are interested in the same thing.

As for my course of action, finding a source has become number one priority. I have purchased some very inexpensive beta-alanine to add to my own pre, post, and “post post” recovery supplement. If anyone is curious as to what it is:

Pre=4:1 Carb to protein ratio in water with Vitamins C, E and 5gs of BCAA to include Leucine

Post=3:1 Carb to protein ratio in water with Vitamins C, E with 5gs of BCAA

Post Post=1:5 Carb to Protein ratio in MILK with Vitamin C, E and 5gs of BCAA.

Reason for the milk, both casein (spelling) and whey are in milk, figured it would be an intelligent part of nutrient timing. If I am wrong please feel free to “school that ass” on anything I say or just interject your inputs.

My diet is roughly 4280 calories daily with a workout in the morning and evening. I am using the “.8xbody weight” method for protein intake. Carbs are about a 4xbody weight, fats are only unsaturated (monos and polys)

SO with all that said again my next question is AM I EATING ENOUGH. I suppose by asking that I already know the answer (if you have to ask then no right?).

I have an appointment with the doc to get the whole work up done. So I’ll post those results to anyone who is interested.

Anavar is my choice, Test and EQ are secondary. Anavar and EQ would be great too from what I have read as of late. You are all correct I should be on Beta-Alanine; creatine has had a great affect on my performance in the past so I’ll give it a shot.

Again as always any recommendations, suggestions, or any other “tions” are great. KEEP THEM COMING! SCHOOL THAT ASS!

Viceral

[quote]viceral90 wrote:
To all,

It’s been awhile since my last post. Thanks for all the input and interest in the subject. This is a topic I could not find on any other forum so it is exciting to me that people are interested in the same thing.

As for my course of action, finding a source has become number one priority. I have purchased some very inexpensive beta-alanine to add to my own pre, post, and “post post” recovery supplement. If anyone is curious as to what it is:

Pre=4:1 Carb to protein ratio in water with Vitamins C, E and 5gs of BCAA to include Leucine

Post=3:1 Carb to protein ratio in water with Vitamins C, E with 5gs of BCAA

Post Post=1:5 Carb to Protein ratio in MILK with Vitamin C, E and 5gs of BCAA.

Reason for the milk, both casein (spelling) and whey are in milk, figured it would be an intelligent part of nutrient timing. If I am wrong please feel free to “school that ass” on anything I say or just interject your inputs.

My diet is roughly 4280 calories daily with a workout in the morning and evening. I am using the “.8xbody weight” method for protein intake. Carbs are about a 4xbody weight, fats are only unsaturated (monos and polys)

SO with all that said again my next question is AM I EATING ENOUGH. I suppose by asking that I already know the answer (if you have to ask then no right?).

I have an appointment with the doc to get the whole work up done. So I’ll post those results to anyone who is interested.

Anavar is my choice, Test and EQ are secondary. Anavar and EQ would be great too from what I have read as of late. You are all correct I should be on Beta-Alanine; creatine has had a great affect on my performance in the past so I’ll give it a shot.

Again as always any recommendations, suggestions, or any other “tions” are great. KEEP THEM COMING! SCHOOL THAT ASS!

Viceral
[/quote]

I’m curious to see how this goes for you. All the research I’ve done points to Anavar “not” being the drug of choice for endurance athletes. Most cyclist who have used it report a negative effect on their endurance. Good luck and please keep us posted if you use Anavar.