A few studies have been conducted showing that anabolic steroids may comprimise brain function by altering dopamine and seratonin levels in the brain. The amount of research is very limited, however one study comparing AAS using bodybuilders and AAS free bodybuilders showed AAS users had structural changes in certain parts of the brain and AAS users preformed significantly less well on a visuospatial cognitive task than nonusers. A few more studies in rats hint that nandrolone can cause brain damage, even at relatively low end doses. What do you guys think about this? Any truth to it or is it the usual anti-steroid propaganda. There was one study that came to the conclusion testosterone caused brain cell apoptosis (death), however I find that study invalid due to the ridiculous amount of testosterone that would need to be used in order to replicate such results.
Look at that dose!
the bottom study had a dose equivalent of 1700mg for me
for 6 weeks
Any medication would cause significant side effects at that dose.
Not sure it translates to real world usage
It might, human equivalent dosage would be far less than 1700 mg daily, what can be argued is that it’s a study on rats, and in many cases what happens in rats will not happen in humans. It seems rats are very prone to getting hypertrophic cardiomyopathy from AAS. If the same result was true in humans (although humans can get said condition from AAS), we would likely see a loooooot more bodybuilders dropping dead.
This is a good study you posted on nandrolone. People blame side effects of aas ALWAYS ON ESTROGEN when in fact the majority of sides are a result of altered neurotransmitters.
Out of mere curiosity, do you think, long term, that EQ would be safer than test only? Surely test must be safer since it is naturally produced. There isn’t really any medical data to go by so I’m just looking for an opinion.
That’s an interesting question. A lot of guys in the Middle East use eq as a replacement for test due to its similar structure and mild conversion to e. I think if someone were especially sensitive to estrogen it would be a better option for them to use very low doses of testosterone and eq together if you’re thinking longer term admin. Obviously I can’t prescribe it haha. I also always come back to people overblowing the need for anti estrogens. Most guys that we see in our practice don’t need anti estrogens - they need liver support mostly.
interesting, I was thinking more along the lines of a blast, would EQ be more damaging to health long term (heart function etc). Why do guys on trt need liver support? Are they using methyltestosterone/halotestin for trt or are they using orals on top of trt.
No. Liver support is beneficial for everyone due to the increased demands on the organ because of environmental and food quality issues mainly. If you keep your liver healthy most guys don’t really need an anti e. Typically guys with an out of whack ratio of test to estrogen have a less than optimal liver function.
As far as eq during blasts - it’s basiclaly the only drug I use anymore during blasts. I blast typically twice a year for 16 weeks with 8 weeks in between each blast. My blasts aren’t even high by most standards - 200-300 mg test and 400-600 mg eq. I really know my own physiology and it works well for me.
This was written by a really good friend of mine here in Columbus Ohio.
Based on me, my won experience, I’ve been getting better and better while on steroids, I feel more capable of doing things, maybe this is some side effect of being more self confident, just because you do have a better look, stronger and faster… or maybe not. I know that I’ve got better job, better decisions, better choices, my mind is clear all the time, and man… I know they did a reseach, but, but,… I do believe in what I am today and what I’m capable to do (that I wasn’t before), and there is some drastic changes. My memory, power of right decisions, perception of things around me… man… steroids make you look like a super man and think like one…
Trufax on the environmental & dietary liver stress.
What’s your opinion on Milk Thistle oil ? I’ve been using it 2 weeks now. Amazon reviews seem to rate it. Link:
I’ve never used real cranberry juice or lemon, will get on that.
HED from this study would be ~2.49mg/kg.
I think the liver clearance of e2 is a rarely talked about.
Sam-E absolutely TANKED my e2.
As do DIM or anything else related to methylation. It’s frustrating to see guys all get on the AI bandwagon when they don’t need it. Some guys in this forum need to read through the shadow pro forums etc and stay out of the trt forums. The protocols are totally different. Also and I stress this to all my patients - go off how you FEEL and realize labs don’t always correlate. I’d rather my patients feel better with elevated estrogen then feel like shit with what people assume is “normal” estrogen. I’m exhausted by the whole thing tbh. It’s fuckall on these forums to hear people bash endos etc. I wonder how many of them went to med school then did fellowship in the field and then do continuing ed in the field yearly. Probably no one. So yea all the knowledge we gain plus continuing ed in the field is dismissed and instead filled with forum jockeys who say “all the stuff we’ve seen in men…” I just attended a seminar in Europe discussing estrogens role in trt management and - low and behold - ratio matters more than a set reference range. Well no shit.
I agree 100%. When I first started TRT, I was so set on the idea that I needed an AI because it is talked about so frequently on the TRT board.
Long story short, I used DIM for about a year, keeping my e2 in the 17-18 range, caused some knee issues that have taken over a year to finally start to feel better.
I decided that I wanted to see where my e2 would fall on NO estrogen control, and found out that I have “slightly” elevated e2 at 100mg a week, went down to 80, im good.
I gave the same advice to a new member. Find out if you even need an AI before you start messing with it. How do you even KNOW you NEED an AI if you don’t try the protocol without it?
My comment was dismissed. The person dismissing the comment said that it didn’t matter what their E2 was on no AI.
I completely disagree, and I think that the pushing of AI’s has caused unnecessary damage. Some need it, there’s no doubt about that. But its not necessary, like what is proposed. There is no magic E2 number. I felt great with my e2 at 30. But I got stuck in the stupid mindset, that it needed to be at 22.
This. All of this. Great post man.
Ive recently had a bilirubin lab come back a little high, has since I started TRT. Nothing crazy. top of range is 1.0 and im like 1.1 1.2.
Anyway, is there any recommended liver supp that I can take that wont take my e2?
CDG and Sam-E are out.
Currently take Milk Thistle extract Every other day, my other enzymes are always great, just the bili.
I was looking at something like NAC maybe?
I see it increases glutathione. But I don’t see if it will effect my e2.
Def NAC. It’s fantastic. I would also start every day with hot lemon water and some organic real cranberry juice.
Thanks for the confirmation. Gonna incorporate some into the supplement stack.
I think it was you that I saw on here talking about hot water/lemon and cranberry. Will follow up. Thanks again!
You got it man.