T Nation

Steroid Guys --- Advice?

This probably would be better in the Old Guys section, but here goes:

I’ve been on 200 mg of Cyp (for TRT) every 2 weeks. Before, I tried once/week and the results are similar. I’ve had just about any bloodwork known to man and all anyone finds is low T. I just don’t feel like my old self.

I feel somewhat better than before starting therapy. I also never get sick, whereas before I would get cold after cold. But…is that all you get from TRT?

I’m thinking of maybe HCG or an anti-E.
Thought? Ideas? All replies are welcome.

Thanks gents!

If you still have low blood levels after a certain dose of HRT your doctor should bump it up until you get into the normal range. Many doctors don’t care as long as you’re “normal,” even if that’s at the very bottom of the range, while others would rather their patients be in the high-normal range (like my current doc).

If your doctor is unreceptive to your situation then find a new doctor, if your insurance allows it. Some people need 100/wk, some need 400/wk. Maybe it’s just that you need more.

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Have a look at something called ‘proviron’. There is something called Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) which - surprise surprise - binds to sex hormone, preventing it from exerting its effects on skeletal muscle etc. Proviron binds to SHBG, freeing up more of the test to work its mojo.

Proviron is a weak androgen, plus it is oral and 17aa, but don’t let that put you off as it’s not hard on the liver. In fact, as long as you get your liver enzymes tested regularly, I would wager that you could stay on it for life, although don’t quote me on that![/quote]

If I am not mistaken - Masteron has the same SHBG affinity as the proviron.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Have a look at something called ‘proviron’. There is something called Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) which - surprise surprise - binds to sex hormone, preventing it from exerting its effects on skeletal muscle etc. Proviron binds to SHBG, freeing up more of the test to work its mojo.

Proviron is a weak androgen, plus it is oral and 17aa, but don’t let that put you off as it’s not hard on the liver. In fact, as long as you get your liver enzymes tested regularly, I would wager that you could stay on it for life, although don’t quote me on that![/quote]

The OP is from the USA. I don’t think that proviron is available as a drug in the USA and might be difficult to get by any means. Would masteron have the same benefits if it could be obtained. Any other gear with similar profiles? … sexual effects?

Profiles on these drugs discuss doses and stacking, but for folks on serious gear. I have no idea what doses would be appropriate for folks on the lower dosing of TRT.

Bump on the Proviron,great stuff. Also have you tried more frequent injections? Once every two weeks isn’t enough to maintain stable blood levels.

[quote]magick62d wrote:
Bump on the Proviron,great stuff. Also have you tried more frequent injections? Once every two weeks isn’t enough to maintain stable blood levels.[/quote]

Maybe its because I was low for a long time and didn’t know it, so its taking a LONG time to help me.

What I do now is inject, wait one week (during which I feel okay) and then put on Androgel or Testim (leftover from before).

But, the last few days before the inject is still hell. I make simple errors in my work and am very listless. My mood is downright terrible. Its also damnned embarrassing when you make a mistake on the board (teacher) and MY SON corrects me (he’s in my precalc class). :wink:

I’m going to describe my symptoms to a new doc on Monday, see if he’ll up the dose. I will also look into Masteron.

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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

I like the idea that my body is breaking down the esters too quickly. I know its short notice, but is there a test I should ask for?

My experience with docs here is pretty bad. The best ones are at the Cleveland Clinic and there we’re talking $$$$$$$. I have good insurance but I know they’ll only let me go there if I’m near death. :slight_smile:

If you are breaking down the esters faster, you will get higher peaks of T and that can increase SHBG and E as a result of the peak levels. All of that is not natural and folks are suggesting more frequent injections to allow you to have more level hormones. You would be wise to try that again. I felt like crap on weekly injections. Now I inject EOD. That was not all that I needed. HCG and Arimidex anti-E have been very important.

When you try more frequent injections, you need to give your body time to adjust and for several cascading processes to level off. Brain patterns also need to change and that can take a while too.

[quote]KSman wrote:
If you are breaking down the esters faster, you will get higher peaks of T and that can increase SHBG and E as a result of the peak levels. All of that is not natural and folks are suggesting more frequent injections to allow you to have more level hormones. You would be wise to try that again. I felt like crap on weekly injections. Now I inject EOD. That was not all that I needed. HCG and Arimidex anti-E have been very important.

When you try more frequent injections, you need to give your body time to adjust and for several cascading processes to level off. Brain patterns also need to change and that can take a while too.[/quote]

I see now why Androgel was invented. :slight_smile: I wouldn’t mind 3 or 4 injections per week, but I can see how hard that would be, to general compliance. I’ll ask the doc about the EOD protocol.

I tried Androgel, btw. It helped a little but broke me out BAD on my shoulders and arms.

New dude sucks donkey balls.

I’m going to simply buy Proviron on the 'net and take TRIBEX. If they want to arrest me for buying that, for just trying to feel better, well, okay.

Thanks for the advice gents. The weak link is the worthless docs.

Looks like u r:

#1. Never getting ur levels high enough

#2. Letting them crash every other week.

If I were u I would buy a good supply of AI and test and next week go with a gram of test Sunday morning and taper down to 500 for about 12 weeks and then taper to 200-400 a week forever. But thats just me!

Bush hit the nail on the head.

The more and more I read about the aging process in men and the drop in free testosterone, I am beginning to think that testosterone production isn’t the problem. If that were the case, there would be testicular atrophy. Which usually isn’t what happens. So why the drop in testosterone? SHBG!

I have read that SHBG actually increases when men age. So it is the SHBG that is binding up testosterone, resulting in loss of muscle, lethargy, increased fat uptake, drop in libido, increased chance of cardiovascular disease, etc.

So the recommended treatment is to administer exogenous testosterone. Now, with more testosterone, SHBG can’t bind it all up, and guys feel better.

But the exogenous administration of test can cause some sides that are undesirable. Like testicular atrophy and increased risk of prostate cancer (it is still being studied whether TRT increases the risk of prostate cancer, but it is debated). And I don’t know if the increase in test increases the amount of SHBG … but could also be the case.

My (possibly flawed) conclusions are that it is better to control SHBG before you start administering testosterone replacement. Since you are already injecting, I would advise you to control SHBG with proviron before you up the dose.

And it was also my assumption that proviron is a better SHBG-binder than masteron. And that masteron is a better anti-estrogen.

[quote]lattimus wrote:

My (possibly flawed) conclusions are that it is better to control SHBG before you start administering testosterone replacement. Since you are already injecting, I would advise you to control SHBG with proviron before you up the dose.

And it was also my assumption that proviron is a better SHBG-binder than masteron. And that masteron is a better anti-estrogen.[/quote]

How to control SHBG? It increases in men with age. Perhaps from the increasing levels of E as well. T4 also stimulates SHBG. But I do not know of any method of reducing SHBG. TRT increases SHBG if E increases. There is some thinking that once SHBG increases, that there is no way to reduce it. Part of the libido loss that many women suffer while on and after BC is attributed to a large non-recoverable increase in SHBG that also soaks up their T.

If SHBG levels will reduce in response to lower amounts of E, then proviron, by lowering E levels, might then also take the pressure off of the body to produce SHBG. That would suggest a longer term secondary improvement process; if it is going to happen at all. Anti-E might have some of the same secondary effects by removing the pressure of E on the SHBG levels. Proviron certainly sounds like a magic bullet.

KSman-
Proviron is not a very good anti-estrogen. True, it is a DHT derivative, but it is also an oral.

Meaning that it has to pass through the liver, and that is where SHBG is synthesized (which is why many have come to the conclusion that proviron is a better SHBG-binder, while masteron is a better anti-estrogen). Its main purpose of use is to bind competitively with SHBG to free up testosterone … as Bush already explained above.
So it won’t actually lower SHBG levels, but it will bind up with it and render it inactive. I wasn’t sure if you were agreeing with me on that or not?

Estrogen levels is another factor that can influence SHBG, glad you brought it up. Increases in estrogen increase SHBG.

Increases in prolactin also increase SHBG.

Also, the higher body fat % you have, the higher the levels of SHBG (which is probably correlated with estrogen).
So, yes. Proviron is a very good drug choice.

Your doctor is not gonna be keen on EOD injections, I can pretty much tell you that right now.

Your gonna have to bend the rules a little bit to get what you want. What would T man do?

Your just scratching the surface of TRT with every week injections only. The diamond is WAY down inside there. Keep scratching.

EOD with insulin needle is a great first leap. Just do it. Put the work in.

Secondly hCG will help immensly. Ive read about drastically improved mood, memory and energy from adding hCG.

Last but certainly not least, estrogen. You need to first find out what your estrogen is(AFTER you do #1 and 2) then adjust accordingly. I would recommend you get liquid adex online(I can PM you a link) because tablet form is much more expensive. It can be make or break. Your receptors are probably all jammed up with estrogen. From what Ive read, levels in the mid to high 20’s are best. Mine are 47. So Ive got work to do as well. Again, remember your doctor probably isn’t gonna have all the right answers you need. Your gonna have to do alot of homework yourself. I can PM you some good stuff outlining TRT if you want.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
KSman wrote:
If you are breaking down the esters faster, you will get higher peaks of T and that can increase SHBG and E as a result of the peak levels. All of that is not natural and folks are suggesting more frequent injections to allow you to have more level hormones. You would be wise to try that again. I felt like crap on weekly injections. Now I inject EOD. That was not all that I needed. HCG and Arimidex anti-E have been very important.

When you try more frequent injections, you need to give your body time to adjust and for several cascading processes to level off. Brain patterns also need to change and that can take a while too.

I see now why Androgel was invented. :slight_smile: I wouldn’t mind 3 or 4 injections per week, but I can see how hard that would be, to general compliance. I’ll ask the doc about the EOD protocol.

I tried Androgel, btw. It helped a little but broke me out BAD on my shoulders and arms.

[/quote]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
KSman wrote:

I tried Androgel, btw. It helped a little but broke me out BAD on my shoulders and arms.

[/quote]

Thats why androgel sucks. It has a higher rate of conversion(per mg) to DHT than injectable test. With more DHT, you’ll definitely get more acne and possibly more prostate issues.