T Nation

Steroid Curiosity

No, I am not planning on using gear right now… Definitely not for a long time. I was having a debate the other day with some friends. A few of them decided they’re going to buy some. We’re all around 18. I couldn’t understand why they would, because they’re really gifted athletes. They don’t have to work very hard, yet they’re stronger and bigger than most guys our age. So I asked them, how are you going to do just 1 cycle. They said they’d just maintain what they got from it. Is that even possible? I just see steroids as being very addicting. Just due to the psychological aspect of it. You get a taste of the faster gains, why would you ever want to go back to normal right?

So , I’m asking you guys, can you really not get addicted to steroids and do 1 cycle? And can you actually keep those gains without steroids? What’s your opinion on it?

of course you could just do one cycle, and yes, you can keep your gains from it. Hardly anybody ever just does one cycle, not because they’re addictive, just because once you start you realise it’s not as big a deal as you thought it was so you do more. That’s not to say you never stop, just that you rarely stop at just one.

And yeah, I suppose you could say they were addictive. People get addicted to all sorts of stuff. The trick is just to have some willpower like an adult is supposed to.

They won’t do just one, honestly yes they are pretty addicting in the way you described. They could maintain what they get from one cycle as long as they haven’t passed their natural genetic potential which is just about impossible given their age. If I were you id wait a few more years, keep training hard, eating right, etc. you are too young right now but if you want to take the risk that’s up to you.

[quote]SirTroyRobert wrote:
No, I am not planning on using gear right now… Definitely not for a long time. I was having a debate the other day with some friends. A few of them decided they’re going to buy some. We’re all around 18. I couldn’t understand why they would, because they’re really gifted athletes. They don’t have to work very hard, yet they’re stronger and bigger than most guys our age. So I asked them, how are you going to do just 1 cycle. They said they’d just maintain what they got from it. Is that even possible? I just see steroids as being very addicting. Just due to the psychological aspect of it. You get a taste of the faster gains, why would you ever want to go back to normal right?

So , I’m asking you guys, can you really not get addicted to steroids and do 1 cycle? And can you actually keep those gains without steroids? Yes I know this should go into the steroid sub forum… but it seems kind of dead in there. You guys seem to have more in depth conversations. What’s your opinion on it?[/quote]

I think it’s possible to only do one cyle… but highly unlikely. I do believe there is that psychological and also physical ‘addiction’ that COULD happen. Some personality get addicted very fast some don’t. For the psychological apect, you may like what you see in the mirror (and probably the looks you get from the fine ladies…) and once you stop and loose some or all the gains you had on cycle makes it psychologically addictive. So you just want to get back on to get that feeling again.

They could be also, physiologically addictive. When you’re on gear, you feel great, you feel invicible, you feel energetic, strong,… So you might get addicted in that way. But overall they’re not that addictive.

Can they keep the gains they made after they done one cyle. I do believe that it might bring them to their genetic potential faster and they might be able to keep their genetic potential if they do everything right. But the way you talk, they could do more without them and once they stop, they’re most likely going to loose some if not all.

Everybody here, will most likely tell you, that first of all, should be a little older. You want to make sure you’re (your friends) finished growing up (physically, cause mentally, some never go above 12years of mental age…13 on a good day).

Also, all the gear in the world on make up for shitty work outs, junk food 4 times a day and partying and not recovering properly.

Some do have better genetics. Even if they do everything wrong they still gain. The rest of us, with shitty genetic, even if we do everything right might never make it to the level of guys with shitty work out ethics with good genetic.

I told my friends they should definitely wait. They’re all brothers. Two of them are twins, and the other is a year older than us. I just think if I went on, I wouldn’t want to go back to being natural. After you see how fast you can progress with drugs, I can’t imagine the feeling after you’re clean, and can’t get close to those kind of results, or maybe even decline. I know how loss of strength or size can play on the mind psychologically , I imagine it would be the same on steroids. The second you come off, you’d look in the mirror and keep asking yourself if you’ve lost it. But as with anything, I can’t stop people from doing what they want to do. They have very limited knowledge. I lurk in the steroid forums, because yes it does interest me. I enjoy researching, and not just believing what is regurgitated over and over by the media. I could see myself using in the future , but definitely not now. I’ve got pretty solid genetics in my opinion. (440 DL, 335 squat, 220 pause bench at 5’4 and bodyweight of 140 lbs.) I compete in powerlifting now, and since I’m only 18, I think I can get pretty far.

yes you can only do one cycle

no you will not keep your gains

steroids are very addicting… once you’ve been superman, you don’t want to go back to being clark kent.

you are very strong for your size… you appear to be very disciplined and reasonably mature. if you do steroids, you will soon realize that they aren’t something that was meant to be cycled… rather, once you start, you are on for life.

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.[/quote]

No you won’t. A week? Sure. A month? Maybe? Couple months? A year? No.

[quote]Steve Rogers wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.[/quote]

No you won’t. A week? Sure. A month? Maybe? Couple months? A year? No.
[/quote]

I disagree with that too. You really don’t think you’ll still have your gains a couple of months after PCT?

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.[/quote]

think of it this way, the average male human produces what equates to 50-70mg of testosterone a week…

you then inject anywhere from 5-10x that (if not more) in testosterone and/or testosterone derivatives…

once you begin pct, your natural production is shut down, and the exogenous hormones leave your system…so you essentially have nothing in you. if everything goes perfectly with pct, you will be back to the original 50-70mg/week.

so having said that, do you honestly believe that you can keep the gains that you made while blasting your system full of AAS- with your natural testosterone production which is miniscule by comparison?

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
yes you can only do one cycle

no you will not keep your gains

steroids are very addicting… once you’ve been superman, you don’t want to go back to being clark kent.

you are very strong for your size… you appear to be very disciplined and reasonably mature. if you do steroids, you will soon realize that they aren’t something that was meant to be cycled… rather, once you start, you are on for life. [/quote]

Yeah, I’m not as naive as my friends. They truly believe steroids can’t possibly be addicting in the least. I tried to give them the example of when you think you’ve gotten weaker or smaller… They still say I’m wrong and it doesn’t take very much to maintain what you’ve already got. Like I said, they’re 3 brothers. Great genetics, all great athletes. They don’t have to put much effort in and already are far ahead most people. I know if I did choose to go the enhanced route, chances are I wouldn’t want to go back to being natural. If I did go on, I’d really want to wait until I start to decline and do more of an HRT type thing.

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.[/quote]

think of it this way, the average male human produces what equates to 50-70mg of testosterone a week…

you then inject anywhere from 5-10x that (if not more) in testosterone and/or testosterone derivatives…

once you begin pct, your natural production is shut down, and the exogenous hormones leave your system…so you essentially have nothing in you. if everything goes perfectly with pct, you will be back to the original 50-70mg/week.

so having said that, do you honestly believe that you can keep the gains that you made while blasting your system full of AAS- with your natural testosterone production which is miniscule by comparison? [/quote]

I actually brought this up to my friends. How can you expect to maintain what 10x the amount of hormones in your body brought you, with 1/10th of what got you there? Their argument is that your body doesn’t simply start to throw muscle away. Once you get it you keep it… They are very limited in their knowledge of how the body works and steroids for that matter.

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.[/quote]

think of it this way, the average male human produces what equates to 50-70mg of testosterone a week…

you then inject anywhere from 5-10x that (if not more) in testosterone and/or testosterone derivatives…

once you begin pct, your natural production is shut down, and the exogenous hormones leave your system…so you essentially have nothing in you. if everything goes perfectly with pct, you will be back to the original 50-70mg/week.

so having said that, do you honestly believe that you can keep the gains that you made while blasting your system full of AAS- with your natural testosterone production which is miniscule by comparison? [/quote]

the way I see it is this: if we use someone who’s genetic ceiling is 200lbs at 8% bodyfat for an example (just arbitrary figures for the sake of discussion), if they reach that limit naturally or using steroids, the body will still be able to maintain it, as it is within the body’s threshold. The body has enough hormones to support the genetic ceiling, regardless of whether that ceiling is reached with or without AAS. It’s when you get over that ceiling that you’ll shrink back down.

Brosciencey as fuck, but that is my opinion based on what I’ve observed. I’m not saying I’m definitely right, but what I’ve seen seems to support it.

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.[/quote]

think of it this way, the average male human produces what equates to 50-70mg of testosterone a week…

you then inject anywhere from 5-10x that (if not more) in testosterone and/or testosterone derivatives…

once you begin pct, your natural production is shut down, and the exogenous hormones leave your system…so you essentially have nothing in you. if everything goes perfectly with pct, you will be back to the original 50-70mg/week.

so having said that, do you honestly believe that you can keep the gains that you made while blasting your system full of AAS- with your natural testosterone production which is miniscule by comparison? [/quote]

the way I see it is this: if we use someone who’s genetic ceiling is 200lbs at 8% bodyfat for an example (just arbitrary figures for the sake of discussion), if they reach that limit naturally or using steroids, the body will still be able to maintain it, as it is within the body’s threshold. The body has enough hormones to support the genetic ceiling, regardless of whether that ceiling is reached with or without AAS. It’s when you get over that ceiling that you’ll shrink back down.

Brosciencey as fuck, but that is my opinion based on what I’ve observed. I’m not saying I’m definitely right, but what I’ve seen seems to support it.[/quote]

This was my logic as well. But maybe the amount of time you put on muscle on aas has something to do with it as opposed to gradually building naturally and giving the body time to adapt? Also sounds very bro sciency

[quote]SirTroyRobert wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.[/quote]

think of it this way, the average male human produces what equates to 50-70mg of testosterone a week…

you then inject anywhere from 5-10x that (if not more) in testosterone and/or testosterone derivatives…

once you begin pct, your natural production is shut down, and the exogenous hormones leave your system…so you essentially have nothing in you. if everything goes perfectly with pct, you will be back to the original 50-70mg/week.

so having said that, do you honestly believe that you can keep the gains that you made while blasting your system full of AAS- with your natural testosterone production which is miniscule by comparison? [/quote]

I actually brought this up to my friends. How can you expect to maintain what 10x the amount of hormones in your body brought you, with 1/10th of what got you there? Their argument is that your body doesn’t simply start to throw muscle away. Once you get it you keep it… They are very limited in their knowledge of how the body works and steroids for that matter.
[/quote]

yes well your friends will quickly learn the hard way. muscle is very calorically expensive tissue, and the body will not want to keep it, especially if it is in entirely difference hormonal circumstances.

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

think of it this way, the average male human produces what equates to 50-70mg of testosterone a week…
[/quote]

Where may I ask did you get this figure? I ask because of what I see of the average TRT dose being at least twice this. Is this because 50-70 mg places you at the mid range of 500ng/dl and TRT aims to place or higher? Or is it because the longer esters used in TRT take longer to release. Ultimately I’m curious because I have settled on taking about 250mg of enanthate a week with some hcg and I’m curious if this is too high and may exacerbate heart problems. Testosterone is cheap, doctors visits to be safe about it not so much.

[quote]c.m.l. wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

think of it this way, the average male human produces what equates to 50-70mg of testosterone a week…
[/quote]

Where may I ask did you get this figure? I ask because of what I see of the average TRT dose being at least twice this. Is this because 50-70 mg places you at the mid range of 500ng/dl and TRT aims to place or higher? Or is it because the longer esters used in TRT take longer to release. Ultimately I’m curious because I have settled on taking about 250mg of enanthate a week with some hcg and I’m curious if this is too high and may exacerbate heart problems. Testosterone is cheap, doctors visits to be safe about it not so much.
[/quote]

basically because 50-70mg generally places you in the middle to upper-middle portion of the range yes. a real TRT dose is approximately 100mg test E a week, which, once you subtract the ester weight, comes to approximately 70mg of testosterone IIRC

250mg/week is too high yes. this will generally express itself in elevated hematocrit and RBC count if you are predisposed to such things.

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
no you will not keep your gains

[/quote]

I disagree with this. As long as you’re not way over your genetic limit I believe you will keep your gains.[/quote]

think of it this way, the average male human produces what equates to 50-70mg of testosterone a week…

you then inject anywhere from 5-10x that (if not more) in testosterone and/or testosterone derivatives…

once you begin pct, your natural production is shut down, and the exogenous hormones leave your system…so you essentially have nothing in you. if everything goes perfectly with pct, you will be back to the original 50-70mg/week.

so having said that, do you honestly believe that you can keep the gains that you made while blasting your system full of AAS- with your natural testosterone production which is miniscule by comparison? [/quote]

the way I see it is this: if we use someone who’s genetic ceiling is 200lbs at 8% bodyfat for an example (just arbitrary figures for the sake of discussion), if they reach that limit naturally or using steroids, the body will still be able to maintain it, as it is within the body’s threshold. The body has enough hormones to support the genetic ceiling, regardless of whether that ceiling is reached with or without AAS. It’s when you get over that ceiling that you’ll shrink back down.

Brosciencey as fuck, but that is my opinion based on what I’ve observed. I’m not saying I’m definitely right, but what I’ve seen seems to support it.[/quote]

This was my logic as well. But maybe the amount of time you put on muscle on aas has something to do with it as opposed to gradually building naturally and giving the body time to adapt? Also sounds very bro sciency
[/quote]

brosciency but plausible, definitely.

The dirty little secret in this story in the Ambulance Chaser commercials fishing for Testosterone users that have died for had massive heart disease as a direct result of their PED use. They and everyone else has proven the connection and are trying to cash in on it. If you wish to die an early death more power to you. It is the ultimate in stupidity.

[quote]Krinks wrote:
The dirty little secret in this story in the Ambulance Chaser commercials fishing for Testosterone users that have died for had massive heart disease as a direct result of their PED use. They and everyone else has proven the connection and are trying to cash in on it. If you wish to die an early death more power to you. It is the ultimate in stupidity.
[/quote]

Years ago it was testosterone therapy that was a 100% guaranteed way to give you prostate cancer (which was medically dispelled), now it’s 100% guaranteed to give you heart disease…

I respectfully disagree, and while there are still many questions with regard to testosterone and TRT use, as it pertains to both dose and the individual in question, medically no one has proven that testosterone definitely causes early heart/cardiovascular disease mortality in a TRT setting.

In fact:

(1) Most patients who die of heart disease have low testosterone, not high T, supplemental or otherwise.

(2) Men today have a higher incidence of heart disease than those from fifty plus years ago, despite the fact that testosterone levels, free & total, are at an epidemic low in today’s males, across nearly every age group. Note: Obviously, diet and lifestyle are huge contributing factors here as well, and have to be taken into consideration.

(3) There is documented medical and scientific evidence showing that TRT actually can improve the health and longevity of patients with congestive heart failure, as this has been clearly shown in a clinical setting (WebMD). So much for testosterone causing heart failure.

Now…

Can, say, a power lifter or bodybuilder using 2-3 grams of cypionate a week encounter problems from using exogenous testosterone (or a similar synthetic steroid) in such doses that may even shorten their life span?

Absolutely, as these dosages can seriously mess up cholesterol (causing premature hardening of the arteries), raise RBC, and lead to LVH and cardiac miopathy (enlargement of the heart which can lead to heart problems/failure), among other possible maladies. But we are talking extremes here.

So what we know, as it pertains to health, is that too little test is bad, too much test can be equally bad, and in between there is a huge grey area, where for every individual there is a “sweet spot” that will yield optimal health, longevity and quality of life.

The question is how much, and this too becomes highly individual, which is why proper TRT should be treated as a precise and exact science, tailored specifically for each patient undergoing therapy.