T Nation

Staying On SERMs Too Long


#1

(Cycobushmeister, I'm hoping for your input on this)

Gave anadrol a try, hated it, made me feel like shit and it's given me the worst case of gyno I've ever had. Letro is very slowly taking care of it, but I doubt it'll completely get rid of it (I have a pre-existing gyno lump I've had for years, but it's only noticeable if you jam your finger right up into my nip), and certainly not before my cycle ends.

I don't want to be running a high dose of letro when I'm not on test, so I'm going to taper off the letro as my cycle ends then give raloxifene a try.

Thing is, if I do my usual 6 weeks of PCT - which is nolva and clomid combined - and then add in ralox, that'll be me on SERMs for 10 weeks at least!

Is that too long to be on SERMs? Are there any potential negatives? It kinda has to be this long if I'm running ralox as - as I understand it - ralox doesn't really do shit for PCT, so I can't run it instead of the clomid/nolva. It has to be after.

Thoughts? Opinions?


#2

[quote]Yogi wrote:
(Cycobushmeister, I’m hoping for your input on this)

Gave anadrol a try, hated it, made me feel like shit and it’s given me the worst case of gyno I’ve ever had. Letro is very slowly taking care of it, but I doubt it’ll completely get rid of it (I have a pre-existing gyno lump I’ve had for years, but it’s only noticeable if you jam your finger right up into my nip), and certainly not before my cycle ends.

I don’t want to be running a high dose of letro when I’m not on test, so I’m going to taper off the letro as my cycle ends then give raloxifene a try.

Thing is, if I do my usual 6 weeks of PCT - which is nolva and clomid combined - and then add in ralox, that’ll be me on SERMs for 10 weeks at least!

Is that too long to be on SERMs? Are there any potential negatives? It kinda has to be this long if I’m running ralox as - as I understand it - ralox doesn’t really do shit for PCT, so I can’t run it instead of the clomid/nolva. It has to be after.

Thoughts? Opinions?[/quote]

well, Nolva does not have a great effect on the liver long-term. but i think by long-term, those studies refer more to years (in treating women with cancer). Ralox has a lot less side effects than the other SERMs, which is part of what made it interesting in the treatment of cancers. and Ralox has been run for close to a year in men without crazy side effects…

i also just woke up, so i’ll come back to this later when i’m head’s clear…


#3

Yogi, here are a couple links I found:

^now with women, i believe the concern is tamoxifen might prevent breast cancer, but make ovarian (?) cancer more likely. i believe Dan Duchaine (RIP) mentioned this years ago, but also said that surgery for ovarian cancer is far more successful than breast cancer surgery.

i’ve heard several guys mention that this bothered them, and that’s why they switched to toremefine, and have been just as successful in PCT. i think for anyone that cycles a lot or has any history of cancer, then using Tore would be a good idea.

now, this is really interesting:

^tore and ralox are being used in treating the side effects of prostate cancer treatment in men now. based off some of that data, i’d say they are relatively safe for what you’re looking at here.

on a side note, there are a handful of studies of SERMs and AIs in women, and ralox and aromasin have been shown to increase body composition, whereas nolva raises bodyfat. again, those are long term studies in women, so i’m not sure how applicable they are to men, but interesting nonetheless…


#4

thanks man, I appreciate all the effort you went to there.

What do you know about SERMs increasing intratesticular oestrogen? That’s probably my main concern. I remember KSman saying something about how high doses could do it.


#5

[quote]Yogi wrote:
thanks man, I appreciate all the effort you went to there.

What do you know about SERMs increasing intratesticular oestrogen? That’s probably my main concern. I remember KSman saying something about how high doses could do it.[/quote]

yeah, i agree with him.

from what i understand about aromatization, it occurs in various body tissues, but for men, it also occurs in the testes. i think that’s why some guys are more apt to “bottom out” their estrogen with AI’s on cycle. however, i’ve never heard of anyone do this while running HCG…

i think in your case, you’re still managing estrogen with letro, and clomid/nolva shouldn’t raise estrogen too much. ralox shouldn’t either, IMO.

my issue with high SERM doses, is that there simply isn’t much (or any?) data showing that it works, but plenty showing that lower doses work. high doses seem to be more likely to cause unrelated side effects, IMO.


#6

cool, I’ll not worry too much about it then. Thanks man