T Nation

Stasis Taper w/ Prop


#1

Hey guys,

Having read the sticky over a few times, I still have three questions concerning the implementation of a post-cycle stasis taper that I would like a little clarification on.

1)If one only has prop, is a stasis taper feasible if shot ed or eod? I know that cyp or enth would be better suited, given that they would provide for more stable levels, but can prop be used to reasonable effect.

2)I have heard it suggested that a 6 week cycle could perhaps be followed only by a 4-6 week stasis period, followed by a standard SERM pct without use of a taper. Do any of you guys have any thoughts or experiences on this?

3)Do you guys feel that, following a 6 week, short-estered + oral cycle, the benefits accruing from a stasis taper would likely outweigh those of a standard SERM PCT, given that HCG is used on cycle?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Cheers.


#2

I have quite a lot of experience with PCT's consisting of tapers so I'll try and answer your questions as best as I can, based on my own experiences.

1) Yes, definitely (I believe 'Westclock' does this) the main reason people don't do this is the inconvenience of the additional shots.

2) I would NOT advise a taper without a SERM integrated into it, based on my experience a taper alone is ineffective. A six week cycle., constructed wisely would not, IMO warrant a taper.

3) No. I think a taper is best used for longer cycles/ periods of time spent on AAS.

I hope this helps to answer your questions.


#3

BB, have you used the master/prop taper? What was erections and libido like?
How soon after the taper ended do you feel you was normal?


#4

Yes, using the prop eod would be effective and give you stable blood levels. Actually probably better then using longer-esters.

No real need for a taper on a short cycle if you are using orals and fast clearing injectables, although going from being 'on' to being 'off' is going to give you alot of side effects in the first couple of weeks off: body acne, and its not in anyway a smooth transistion to normal in anyway shape or form. Six weeks I would say it would take. HCG use post cycle might be a better approach than just serm use.

Me I would probably use hcg now and aromasin for that short a cycle as the hcg can be used as a crutch for the fist couple weeks off to get some testosterone levels happening while your body normalizes... Then stop the hcg and hit the serm and the aromasin a little longer. At some point you have to come clean off everything and let your body figure things out for itself.

If you are using a long clearing injectables for a six week cycle, then a waiting period at least for the 4 weeks is optimal, to allow clearance times before begining hpta recovery.

I would recomend even shorter cycles using weaker androgenic gear if what you are looking for is a boost but keeping your optimal hpta fuction in mind. 2-3x off as compared to on is probably optimal...


#5

Prisoner are there any updates or 'upgrades' to your original taper protocol? Anything that you may have changed since then that works better?
Im a very slow recoverer hence why I am going to try the prop/mast taper, I was just wondering that by using the taper method I will be suppressed longer then a conventional PCT, is this not correct?
Also I will discontinue my hCG use at week 16, so through the taper will I not get shutdown at the prop/mast dose of 50/50?


#6

So, you would suggest running HCG on cycle, then for two weeks post-cycle, then starting a SERM PCT? Right on. Would 250iu E3D be an acceptable dosage throughout?


#7

Also, thanks for the input guys.


#8

200 iu eod I think would be better...if you are looking for stable levels of natural testosterone.


#9

I would incorporate hcg now into the waiting peroid.

as for using the mast and test together, keep in mind you are reducing the amount as you taper. WHen used in conjunction with a serm...

the entire reason for the taper and the waiting period is that immediately following a cycle your body doesn't have the ability to recover... you have to give it time to reset itself.


#10

Cool, thanks a lot for the advice.


#11

In my case, a shit-load of time.
Ok will follow your advice of running hCG through the waiting period, I was initially considering this anyway.
From a recovery perspective, do you think clomid or nolva is superior in conjuction with the prop/mast?
Also slightly off-topic, do you recommend ommitting carbs from the diet before bed-time while on cycle to stay lean? Or to make most of the cycle and go all out with carbs?


#12

To be honest I don't use either clomid or nolva as I hate them both because of the side effects, but the research I based the taper on was done using 50mg of clomid per day.

as for carbs on cycle, it really depends what time of day you train at. Best to keep carbs to a minium during the day time prior to training, and then be more liberal following. If you train in the evening, then thats when I would eat most of my carbs. It all comes down to staying insulin sensitive, and maximizing nutrition uptake and utilization.
Im not going to explain this further... but this is the approach I would take. No point in fattening up for the sake of it, if your going to add weight add muscle weight.


#13

Thank you for the very informative post P.
Appreciated.


#14

Prisoner has answered everything but I'll throw my 2 cents in...

No I've only used the test taper.

After test taper with SERM it took me quite a while to recover, but I had been on for like nine months or so, so I advice will not be too accurate for some one who cycles.

I believe one of the critical benefits of the taper though, especially for long cycles is that it allows a smooth psychological transition off of AAS, this is important and its value must not be underestimated, IMO.


#15

Thanks Buddaboy.
My original plan was to do a taper from a 12-week cycle but due to my sensitive HPTA I have opted for a 6-week cycle instead with a traditional SERM PCT.


#16

^ That is what I would go with every time if I were you. I always preferred clomid to nolvadex for PCT, and went as high as 150mg a day for the first week with it though I never suffered any of the negative side effects that many here complain of. An aggressive PCT to use after a six week cycle for someone like yourself (or myself before I went onto HRT) would be:

Week 1: 150mg clomid a day
week 2: 100mg clomid a day
week 3 and 4: 50mg clomid a day

Personally that worked for me on shorter cycles (more so that I recovered my sex drive to a degree than kept my gains, I've never really been able to retain gains I was more of a PCT 'crash and burner') I just started doing longer cycles and eventually couldn't recover so went onto HRT.

Good luck, may you succeed where I failed.


#17

Why couldnt you recover? Are you saying you permanently shutdown? Or did you not want to give long enough to recover? Im sure if you gave it long enough you would eventually recover.
Thank you for your info, coming from a guy with a similar sensitivity of HPTA, it really is a gold mine.
I will carry the BuddaBoy legacy on. lol


#18

I once stayed on for about 9 months, cruising mainly, and then stayed off for a year and recovered to about 90%-ish of what I would consider normal libido wise (I can remember being very drunk and still able to get an erection and fuck my girlfriend at the time).

What started to piss me off was yo-yo-ing PCT wise, I'd go on, make some progress (not too much I don't have 'bodybuilding' or 'powerlifting' genetics, but after PCT I'd just go back to where I was before, so I just decided to stay on for longer periods then just decided to do HRT. been 'on' about 2.5 years now. I have before and after pictures in my training log. I more damaged my endocrine system through recklessness than ignorance, one can't expect an easy recovery after a 9 month shutdown! The libido issues are what affected me most, the weight loss was more of an annoyance than an issue to me.

I am quite confident that a six week cycle will give you no recovery problems, especially with the 'aggressive' PCT I outlined. Running HGH throughout the cycle and PCT then perhaps beyond (maybe 3-6 months) will be poetry in motion and should help 'cement' gains.

Good luck...


#19

one thing to add is that serms may need to be tapered as well, and that less is always best. If 25 mg or 12.5 mg of clomid does the same thing with less sides, then do that.


#20

Ive been out of this loop for a while now, is this "stasis" period 4-6 weeks completely off everything, but tapering AI downward to zero. Then the 5th or 7th week, depending on ester, is when you start the Taper?

Thanks