Starvation or Bulk?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
elusive wrote:
Like everyone else said, BAD IDEA. Health risks, your metabolism will be destroyed, you will lose all of your hard earned muscle ect… You say your at 20% BF but you’ve been eating clean for years? I don’t think you actually were, you’re body fat wouldn’t be so high.

You need to learn good eating habits and reach your goals safely. I see you starving yourself, losing muscle and just being skinnier/fatter. GL.

Eating “clean” has ZERO to do with whether you gain body fat. I wish people would quit using that term all together. Calories are still the primary concern, not some arbitrary concept of what “clean” means.

I do agree, however, about the damage starvation can cause. If you lose too much lean body mass, your metabolism will be wrecked. It also won’t quickly come back to the way it was which will make regaining muscle mass even harder and fat gain MUCH easier.

That means this approach is a great way to eventually end up even fatter than you are now with even less muscle mass and a metabolism that will make it much harder to correct that problem.

A calorie deficit of 300-500 from maintenance is what you want. Figure out your maintenance by adding up the calories you eat for a few days.

All of these “special” diets that these various other experts come up with don’t work any better, and all they do is attempt to mask the simple calorie restriction. [/quote]

Thank you.

22

[quote]B rocK wrote:
Is fatloss your only goal?

b/c if your sitting at a heavier weight and want to be “big and strong” you might want to think about your goals. your already big; why not try to stay at that weight and get a tighter diet in order to just be stronger. not smaller and strong.

i’m still not sure if that came out right; so i’m sorry if it didn’t.

everyone else, feel free to flame this response if i failed.[/quote]

I want to be huge and strong, like bodybuilder or powerlifter e.g MAriusz or Ronnie

But I feel my bf is getting in the way of bulking properly.

So do you think I should maintain my weight and just get stroinger at this weight?

23

Hey dude, I know you want to go balls out with this getting lean thing, but take it from me - If you have patience, you can achieve your goals in a healthy way. If you eat big and clean and at the same time stay consistent with cardio - You can build muscle and lose fat. It’s really not that complex.

24

It could be much worse.
For the most part, you probably just need to learn more about your body and how it responds to training.

At 20% bf you naturally see little change in body composition. That sucks, but you probably made at least some gains without noticing.

As a general guideline, I’d say you worked out either too much , sacrificing intensity in your workouts or too little, trying to go for big numbers without the volume needed to establish a base.

Of course, some guys can start right away pushing for big numbers with no regard to technique, nutrition and regular training and make good gains. But that’s probably not you.
So try to reverse your approach.
And post your routine.

Also, try finding training partners. If you can’t get one, perhaps start an online training log.

If you haven’t done cardio, do it dilligently from now on. Stay the hell away from sprint or intervall training. It’s not for you right now. It’s an assistance to boost regeneration, uplift your metabolism and raise your appetite to healthy foods while at the same time burning a small amount of calories. So do it slow.

Generally try to create an environment that supports you. That includes motivational posters, having less sit ins with your obese video game friend who always brings lots o munchies etc.

25

How can anyone answer this question without getting any information from you?
Youre 6’1" and weigh 210, thats not really heavy for your height by any standards and 20% is not morbidly obese so an ordinary common-place cut is all you need.

I don;t even understand why you made this thread other than to say you were too poor to eat clean. Youve been training for 2 years - what weight did you start at? Also throw some starting numbers and current numbers (lifts). Whats your training like? Do you do cardio?

26

[quote]esk221 wrote:
Hey dude, I know you want to go balls out with this getting lean thing, but take it from me - If you have patience, you can achieve your goals in a healthy way. If you eat big and clean and at the same time stay consistent with cardio - You can build muscle and lose fat. It’s really not that complex. [/quote]

SO do you think I should maintain weight and get stronger? Or cut? What do you think?

To everyone -

I am sorry for all of these silly questons. I am just so frustrated. Really. But Thanks yoiu all.

27

[quote]esk221 wrote:
Hey dude, I know you want to go balls out with this getting lean thing, but take it from me - If you have patience, you can achieve your goals in a healthy way. If you eat big and clean and at the same time stay consistent with cardio - You can build muscle and lose fat. It’s really not that complex. [/quote]

I’m going to disagree here. You’ll be running circles if you do that. Building muscle is an ENERGY dependent process. IE, calorie surplus= muslce/fat gain, calorie deficit= muscle/fat loss.

By attempting to do both you’ll be spinning your wheels. The concept of losing fat and gaining muscle simultaneously is usually reserved for complete beginners (orwhich the OP clearly is not.

Want to lose fat? Fine. Fuck everything else-- realize you will not be benching bigger, pulling more, or PRing. You will feel weak and your numbers and performance will decline.

Stick to big heavy compound movements 3-4x a week and create a deficit in a low carbohydrate environment and the fat will melt.

28

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
210 lbs, 20% bf, Age: 20, Height: 6’1, Training: 2 years, No special athletic experience, no ailments or injuries or special hindrances.

It could be much worse.
For the most part, you probably just need to learn more about your body and how it responds to training.
At 20% bf you naturally see little change in body composition. That sucks, but you probably made at least some gains without noticing.

As a general guideline, I’d say you worked out either too much , sacrificing intensity in your workouts or too little, trying to go for big numbers without the volume needed to establish a base.

Of course, some guys can start right away pushing for big numbers with no regard to technique, nutrition and regular training and make good gains. But that’s probably not you.
So try to reverse your approach.
And post your routine.

Also, try finding training partners. If you can’t get one, perhaps start an online training log.

If you haven’t done cardio, do it dilligently from now on. Stay the hell away from sprint or intervall training. It’s not for you right now. It’s an assistance to boost regeneration, uplift your metabolism and raise your appetite to healthy foods while at the same time burning a small amount of calories. So do it slow.

Generally try to create an environment that supports you. That includes motivational posters, having less sit ins with your obese video game friend who always brings lots o munchies etc.
[/quote]

Thank you man. You are a great motivational person. I thank you for your help.

My routine:

Monday - Legs
Front Squats
RDL
Leg Press

Wednesday - Chest+Tricep
Incline Bench
DB Flat Bench
Skullcrusher
Pushdown

Friday - Back
T-Bar Row
Pulldown
Shrugs (I do not do deadlifts here because i think with RDL it would overtax my lower back)

Sunday - DElts + biceps
Overhead press with arbell standing
Lateral raise
Preacher curl with straight bar
preacher curl with db

It seems great, good volume, and frequency. Oh i do about 3 sets per exercise, workning up to heavy weight last set.

But the real question - what should I do about the weight and calories? Cut? Maintain weight and get stronger? I would like to be big and strong in the future, not scrawny with six pacxks. But I thought cut would get me ready for bulk.

Is it better to do this: Eat to maintain weight, or shoot for weightclass (Like maybe 225lb) and then m,aintain that weight while getting as strong as possible, and doing the cardiovascular with low intensit? Ideas?

Thank you again.

29

Before Christian Bale leaned out for the Machinist in '04 he was already in good shape from the role he played in Reign of Fire. Then he bulked back up for Batman Begins. So starving youself wouldnt be the greatest thing to do.

Id suggest getting down to a bf% that you’re happy with using low carb, carb cycling or whatever and then bulking from there.

30

[quote]bams_101 wrote:
Before Christian Bale leaned out for the Machinist in '04 he was already in good shape from the role he played in Reign of Fire. Then he bulked back up for Batman Begins. So starving youself wouldnt be the greatest thing to do.

Id suggest getting down to a bf% that you’re happy with using low carb, carb cycling or whatever and then bulking from there.[/quote]

I agree with this. You are obviously unconformable with your current bf%, want to lean up a bit, and thats fine. I dont think that you should starve youself at all. You should always get a minimum of 8cal/lb of bodyweight. Since your 210, the lowest you should go is 1600 calories/day. I too leaned down to a respectable bf% before “bulking”.

31

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
How can anyone answer this question without getting any information from you?
Youre 6’1" and weigh 210, thats not really heavy for your height by any standards and 20% is not morbidly obese so an ordinary common-place cut is all you need.

I don;t even understand why you made this thread other than to say you were too poor to eat clean. Youve been training for 2 years - what weight did you start at? Also throw some starting numbers and current numbers (lifts). Whats your training like? Do you do cardio?
[/quote]

I do 20 min cardio after each training session.

I started at about 165lb… so I prob gained about 30lb fat.

I started the thread because I was thinking of starving down in order to bulk later. But I am wondering if there is a better way to do it without wasting the time.

I have a question, for people who are advanced. Can I lose the fat If I focus on something to the extent of powerlifting and maintain my weight, while getting far stronger? I want to do this alot… but I dunno if I would just end up looking same but stronger.

Please give me some help… I would much appreciate it.

Thank you.

32

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
tribunaldude wrote:
How can anyone answer this question without getting any information from you?
Youre 6’1" and weigh 210, thats not really heavy for your height by any standards and 20% is not morbidly obese so an ordinary common-place cut is all you need.

I don;t even understand why you made this thread other than to say you were too poor to eat clean. Youve been training for 2 years - what weight did you start at? Also throw some starting numbers and current numbers (lifts). Whats your training like? Do you do cardio?

I do 20 min cardio after each training session.

I started at about 165lb… so I prob gained about 30lb fat.

I started the thread because I was thinking of starving down in order to bulk later. But I am wondering if there is a better way to do it without wasting the time.

I have a question, for people who are advanced. Can I lose the fat If I focus on something to the extent of powerlifting and maintain my weight, while getting far stronger? I want to do this alot… but I dunno if I would just end up looking same but stronger.

Please give me some help… I would much appreciate it.

Thank you.[/quote]

Wait…you gained 45lbs and 30lbs of that was body fat?

Mind you, you claim you did this by eating “clean” and weight lifting?

No one can help you with this because I am not even sure if what you saying is correct.

If someone did gain nearly fifty pounds and 3/4 of that was pure body fat, then they fucked up. Starving yourself would be a great way to enter adult obesity and stay there.

The average person loses half/half body fat and muscle when crash dieting like you mentioned. That means you would lose about 15-20lbs of muscle if you rushed down in weight by 30lbs. This would leave you looking WORSE than you do right now.

33

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
tribunaldude wrote:
How can anyone answer this question without getting any information from you?
Youre 6’1" and weigh 210, thats not really heavy for your height by any standards and 20% is not morbidly obese so an ordinary common-place cut is all you need.

I don;t even understand why you made this thread other than to say you were too poor to eat clean. Youve been training for 2 years - what weight did you start at? Also throw some starting numbers and current numbers (lifts). Whats your training like? Do you do cardio?

I do 20 min cardio after each training session.

I started at about 165lb… so I prob gained about 30lb fat.

I started the thread because I was thinking of starving down in order to bulk later. But I am wondering if there is a better way to do it without wasting the time.

I have a question, for people who are advanced. Can I lose the fat If I focus on something to the extent of powerlifting and maintain my weight, while getting far stronger? I want to do this alot… but I dunno if I would just end up looking same but stronger.

Please give me some help… I would much appreciate it.

Thank you.

Wait…you gained 45lbs and 30lbs of that was body fat?

Mind you, you claim you did this by eating “clean” and weight lifting?

No one can help you with this because I am not even sure if what you saying is correct.

If someone did gain nearly fifty pounds and 3/4 of that was pure body fat, then they fucked up. Starving yourself would be a great way to enter adult obesity and stay there.

The average person loses half/half body fat and muscle when crash dieting like you mentioned. That means you would lose about 15-20lbs of muscle if you rushed down in weight by 30lbs. This would leave you looking WORSE than you do right now.[/quote]

Ok. Well I didn’t calculate that number tbh… I just guessed. My point is that my bodyfat it is reasonably hgihg…

I think the point right now is yes, I did fuck up. But, it’s time to get it right. I understand that starvation to christian bale is wrong now… thank you for explaining it to me. Do you think I should maintain my weight while increasing strength levels?

34

What ARE your strength levels? How could anyone add 75% body fat when bulking up while lifting weights with progressive overload?
What was your training like?

Some of my drunken ramblings may be of help to you:

You lose weight by creating a caloric deficit, and protect muscle by lifting weights.

Timing carbs around lifting sessions is a great way to avoid chronically high insulin levels and at the same time provide enough carbs to maintain lifting intensity - this shd be helpful in protecting muscle.

The training that put the muscle on your body is the training thats most likely to keep it there. In an ideal world you can maintain your lifting routine, and just add cardio and drop calories and/or time carbs to drop fat without affecting muscle. For many, however, it is not an ideal world, so if your strength levels drastically drop you may need any one of various techniques like refeed days or even a week, nutrient partitioning assistance (like M stak or Methoxy).

Alternating sessions where you train with moderate weights w/ short rest intervals with low rep heavy weight days may be the best way for someone who’s carrying a lot of muscle to lean down. since you admittedly did not gain much muscle, this is not a concern for you.

if you try to gain strength (and even end up barely maintaining) but simply try hard to gain strength you should lose no lean mass aside from glycogen, water, etc…

Coconut oil (MCT) in MY opinion is a great way to keep glycogen levels without elevating insulin if you replace daytime non WO carbs, but you’ll need to figure this one out for yourself. I;m not sure about the long term health effects of overconsuming MCTs.

Pre-workout caffeine and/or ephedrine are your buddies.

Finally, I may be alone in this don;t think you should be 'cutting" down at ALL. 210 at 20% is not danger zone for someone who is 6 feet tall. Besides, the hypertrophy effect for a natural trainee drastically drops off as the years go by, and spending a third year cutting down after making negligible gains will leave you with nothing when you do begin your 'bulk". I think you should (assuming your goal is to eventually get big and lean) look into your diet, eat enough calories to gain strength from session to session, time your carbs around lifting sessions and breakfast and add energy system work of your choice.

35

You can actually go from 20ish to 10ish in less than 3 months just completely cutting carbs out. It worked for me and I’m not the kind of guy with a fast metabolism and year-round six packs. It was my first time actually attempting to lose fat.

I’ll never understand why people overcomplicate things so much. It’s really just about removing carbs from the equation and eating protein + green vegetables. Cheat meal here and there. Forget about cardio, add some if you really feel you need it or if your progress has slowed down.
Supplement properly like everyone has been saying. Fish oils are a must, and do I really need to say BCAA’s?

You look like an anxious person that wants it all and wants it now. Might wanna look into Phosphadil Serine also.

36

If you do not post what you eat, the quantity and the frequency then there is nothing anyone can do for you. Keep a food journal and then add up the calories you put in your mouth at the end of the week. Everything that you pour down your gullet. Once you have the base line begin subtracting calories.

It is hard work but if you do not know where you are starting then you sure as heck will not find the destination you seek.

37

[quote]elusive wrote:
Like everyone else said, BAD IDEA. Health risks, your metabolism will be destroyed, you will lose all of your hard earned muscle ect… You say your at 20% BF but you’ve been eating clean for years? I don’t think you actually were, you’re body fat wouldn’t be so high.

You need to learn good eating habits and reach your goals safely. I see you starving yourself, losing muscle and just being skinnier/fatter. GL.[/quote]

I know about this by experiance.
you do not want to starve yourself.
I was 100 pounds heavier than you and 10% more BF%
I was thinking along the same lines that you are now and I wanted to diet down then build up.
I tried it and it was a bad Idea,I got heavier and more fat.
it wasnt untill I started eating clean and eating ALOT that I started on the right track

by bulking I have gained muscle but havent lost or gained weight. that means that I am loosing fat and gaining it right back in muscle,thats a good thing
however I am alot smaller than I was in the right places.

having more muscle will speed your metabolism and cause you to burn more fat.
I know I was a little weirded out by the notion of building myself up to loose weight but it works

work on your strength and eating right and dont worry so much about how much you weigh you will get there soon enough

38

[quote]hexx wrote:
esk221 wrote:
Hey dude, I know you want to go balls out with this getting lean thing, but take it from me - If you have patience, you can achieve your goals in a healthy way. If you eat big and clean and at the same time stay consistent with cardio - You can build muscle and lose fat. It’s really not that complex.

I’m going to disagree here. You’ll be running circles if you do that. Building muscle is an ENERGY dependent process. IE, calorie surplus= muslce/fat gain, calorie deficit= muscle/fat loss.

By attempting to do both you’ll be spinning your wheels. The concept of losing fat and gaining muscle simultaneously is usually reserved for complete beginners (orwhich the OP clearly is not.

Want to lose fat? Fine. Fuck everything else-- realize you will not be benching bigger, pulling more, or PRing. You will feel weak and your numbers and performance will decline.

Stick to big heavy compound movements 3-4x a week and create a deficit in a low carbohydrate environment and the fat will melt. [/quote]

Disagree all you want - But I did both. Granted it took me three plus years to get where I am, but I did it without a dedicated “cutting” or “bulking” phase.

39

[quote]esk221 wrote:
hexx wrote:
esk221 wrote:
Hey dude, I know you want to go balls out with this getting lean thing, but take it from me - If you have patience, you can achieve your goals in a healthy way. If you eat big and clean and at the same time stay consistent with cardio - You can build muscle and lose fat. It’s really not that complex.

I’m going to disagree here. You’ll be running circles if you do that. Building muscle is an ENERGY dependent process. IE, calorie surplus= muslce/fat gain, calorie deficit= muscle/fat loss.

By attempting to do both you’ll be spinning your wheels. The concept of losing fat and gaining muscle simultaneously is usually reserved for complete beginners (orwhich the OP clearly is not.

Want to lose fat? Fine. Fuck everything else-- realize you will not be benching bigger, pulling more, or PRing. You will feel weak and your numbers and performance will decline.

Stick to big heavy compound movements 3-4x a week and create a deficit in a low carbohydrate environment and the fat will melt.

Disagree all you want - But I did both. Granted it took me three plus years to get where I am, but I did it without a dedicated “cutting” or “bulking” phase.[/quote]

Why would someone waste 3-4 years doing something that they could do in less than one?

You weigh how much now?

40

Since I’m always running around without my shirt on, I never had the luxury of having a dedicated bulking or cutting phase. I guess in that way I am a special case. I may have misrepresented my opinion based on my personal experiences, for that I have to apologize. I felt the same way as the OP though, at times I just wanted to starve down to a skeleton and start from scratch.

Anyways - There’s a healthy way to reach your goals. That was my point.

PX - 228 last time I checked.