StartingAgain is Starting Again!

@T3hPwnisher

Assuming you’ve done low box squats, what did you use? Just a super low box with plates stacked on top if needed? I’ve seen boxes and benches used in gyms for box squats, but they’re always pretty high.

I have seen bumper plates stacked to make a “low box,” but my gym doesn’t have those.

https://youtu.be/upgeom2tFt4

Looks like I found a video to help out, and from a former forum member too! Guess it really is as simple as a super low box + some plates. Now to see how they feel on my hips!

Alrighty, so good news is that I’m gonna be traveling a lot with my family this year! The bad thing is that it might mean that I don’t have access to a gym for 2 - 3 months this year. The travels will include places like my grandparents’ village in India, so no gyms there :sweat_smile:

Yeah, I can do push ups and try to fight a place to do pull ups and dips. We’ll see. I might get a bit aggressive with the weight jumps this year to compensate if possible. For example, jumping from 65lbs seated DB presses to 75lbs instead of 70lbs. I mean, as long as I bring my physical therapy equipment to India, the important stuff is taken care of. Still, I’m kinda annoyed despite being excited haha.

Honestly haven’t done much low box box squatting. I have a squat box, so I use that if I need to, but a plyo box can work, as can a stack of bumpers, as can a stack of rubber patio pavers. I really like that final option, because you can make small changes in height with it.

1 Like

Alrighty…

Actual points:

  1. Figured out how to do lat pulldowns without irritating the shoulder. Just pull and hold while only thinking of your lats. Basically, maximize the MMC to put as much stress away from the shoulders as possible. And I’m actually a bit stronger this way + get a stupidly good lat pump too.

  2. Tried low box front squats and back squats. For the box, I found this super low platform and stacked some plates on it. It’s mid-shin high, so below parallel for me. I’ll err on too low than too high since I do want a deep squat. I didn’t have my Oly shoes, but high bar back squats somehow hit my quads more than the front squats did. Go figure. I’ll play around with the Oly shoes next time.

  3. Did an easy 315 x 2 on RDLs after all my sets. Honestly, barbell lifts are so much more draining than DB lifts, and I have no clue why. It’s not a weight thing either. My usual steploading method might not be the best, as a result. However, barbell lifts do mean I can do 5/3/1!!!

  4. Yep, totally gonna do 5/3/1 on RDLs and whatever squat variation I pick. Gonna go with 225 as my TM for RDLs despite it being my 20 rep max at minimum. I LOVE how this is a long-term programming method, and I love Wendler’s philosophy of thinking years down the road. I’m only 28, despite my injuries affecting nearly half of my life so far. I’ll only be 33 five years from now. So why not start very light as Wendler recommends? I mean, just adding 10lbs to your TM every month for 5 years is a 600lbs gain :rofl:. So obviously even the “slow progression” of 5/3/1 is utterly ridiculous if you think about it this way.

  5. Knowing my stupid ego, I will try to maximize frequency on 5/3/1 so I can fit as many training cycles in a year as possible. Why? So I can keep adding 10lbs to my TM super frequently. I have to make sure to fight this urge and NOT do this!! I have to remember to use the TM as a training tool, as hard as that will be haha.

  6. Did 70lbs on seated db press for a few reps and it was A LOT easier than I thought!

  7. Pull ups (neutral grip) getting even easier! Low balling my weight to 225lbs, just 10 pull ups puts me at a “300lbs pull up”. I can’t do 10 straight after lat pulldowns yet, though. And then there are guys like 285lbs Andrew Jacked who can easily do 20 pull ups, putting him at an easy “500lbs pull up”. The fuck :rofl:

Random rant:

  1. I despise how everyone and their grandmother is stronger at pressing than me. There a bunch of teens at the gym today who did 185 on the bench pretty easily despite looking like they’d never done a push up in their life. Yeah, I should be able to bench 185 too, but I’d rather not try until I’m sure it’s a very light weight for me. No barbell pressing remember. Still, I have a grudge against all of you who got to start at the bar or higher for pressing!
1 Like

Don’t know if it’s a plyo box, but my gym had a super low box and I added two bumpers to it. And it worked!

Another question:

You’ve said in a few posts on this site to use the training max in 5/3/1 as a “tool.” Could you expand on this?

What I think you mean is getting the most out of the weights you’re using. For example, even if your TM is “light,” you can still do the 5 PROs with as much control and explosion as possible. And if you’re doing BBB or BBS, for example, you can reduce rest time as much as possible, maximize the control/explosion of the reps, etc. Basically, make the weight as hard as possible for yourself.

Am I correct? Or am I misunderstanding you?

I genuinely don’t recall saying I use the training max in 5/3/1 as a tool. Would you be able to provide context?

The way the TM is used as a tool is that it’s the max you use to base your training off of in 5/3/1. That’s not me doing that: that’s Jim’s approach. It works. It makes sense. I have no idea what my maxes are, but I use the appropriate training max for a program. I suppose it could be argued I’ve used it as a tool before by choosing the TM that forces me to reach certain goals, like when I selected the one that had me get 5x10x405 for squats in 5/3/1 BBB Beefcake.

Getting the most out of the weights I’m using is unrelated to that, though, but absolutely a principle I abide by. 5/3/1 has so much freedom to maneuver that you can do all sorts of stuff and make light weights hard and vise versa. The Malcolm X method can be used, you can clean each rep before you press, you can use pause reps, you can focus on explosion, you can change up implements, reduce rest times, put assistance work in between, etc.

1 Like

Looks like I was misremembering you (or I can’t find the examples). I did find Wendler on his subforum here stating the TM is nothing more than a tool. Here are some related quotes from you that I could find, though:

Thread 1

Your TM has zero bearing on how much muscle or strength you gain. It’s just a number.

Thread 2

I hear this frequently and I wonder how people are running the programs to progress so slow. Everyone I know that has run 5/3/1 has progressed as fast as possible on the programs, and Jim Wendler reports similar stories with young athletes.

And even then, the rate that the TM progresses shouldn’t impact the rate that the TRAINEE progresses. Hell, I’ve progressed while LOWERING my TM.

Find a way to progress every workout. Do more reps, move the bar faster, take shorter rest times between sets, get your assistance work done in fewer sets, gain more bodyweight, jump higher or further on the jumps, throw further on the throws, set conditioning PRs, etc etc. The trainee just needs to give full effort.

If doing PR sets, obviously I get how going from say, 225 x 20 to 225 x 30, would be progression. But if doing 5 PROs with BBB, for example, I’m guessing the progression comes from maximizing what you do with the sets. So reducing rest times, faster bar speed, more rep control, etc. Is this right?

I suppose it could be argued I’ve used it as a tool before by choosing the TM that forces me to reach certain goals, like when I selected the one that had me get 5x10x405 for squats in 5/3/1 BBB Beefcake

This I want to do one day, though I have a feeling this idea shouldn’t be done too often, right? Then again, this seems like a good approach since it always gives me something short-term to strive towards.

1 Like

Those passages sound more familiar. Dudes get too wrapped up in the TM, thinking it’s a measure of how strong you are. It’s not. You can have a 1000lb squat and a 500lb TM and STILL become bigger and stronger. Jim has tons of stories of athletes doing that.

Doesn’t just have to be 5s pro where that happens. It can be during the supplemental work too. And, in fact, if I’m doing 5s pro, it’s typically because I’m doing hard supplemental work, so I’m not worried about what’s happening with the 5s pro. I’m only doing 5s pro to maintain proficiency with handling heavier loads, so I’ll get that practice done and then get to the REAL work of the supplemental work.

The balance between main work and supplemental work is so crucial, and once understood it all clicks. And sure: drive those 5s pro reps hard and fast, and use short rest periods if you can (I’ll typically only rest long enough to change the plates), but “the goal is to keep the goal the goal”: get yours from that supplemental work.

And if the supplemental work is easier, then drive really hard on the main work.

“Calling your shot” is definitely not a Jim Wendler approved approach, haha. But when I compete in strongman it’s just like that. You sign up and THEY tell YOU what you have to lift. It’s up to you to make the lift.

1 Like

And, in fact, if I’m doing 5s pro, it’s typically because I’m doing hard supplemental work, so I’m not worried about what’s happening with the 5s pro.

The balance between main work and supplemental work is so crucial, and once understood it all clicks.

And if the supplemental work is easier, then drive really hard on the main work.

This I get, and I’ve seen passages similar to this on your blog and Wendler’s website blog. You can’t push the main work and the supplemtnal work hard at the same time (or at least, for long).

but “the goal is to keep the goal the goal”: get yours from that supplemental work.

This is part that confuses me somwhat, because BBB even with 60% of the TM is still easy. So if I’m doing 5 PROs + regular old BBB @ 50 - 60%, what is the hard part? Then again, I am starting with a pretty low TM to follow the guidelines of starting light and progressing slowly.

You’ll have to forgive me, but picking an easy approach and then wondering why it’s easy strikes me a bit like this

The two most immediate solutions are heavier TM or higher percentage of BBB work. But if none of those are viable, one could do Malcolm X method and aim to get in all 50 reps as fast as possible, or work to get all the supplemental work done in under 20 minutes with assistance work mixed in, or use pause rep variations for all the supplemental work, or clean each rep from the floor on the press work, or use axles on the deadlift and SSBs on the squats, etc etc.

It’s what I mean when I say “the goal is to keep the goal the goal”. Why are we doing BBB? Is it to gain muscle? Then we need to make it challenging so that it happens. Are we doing BBB to PREPARE to gain muscle? Then we keep it easier so we can get in better shape first. Are we doing it just to get in volume? Then it doesn’t need to be challenging. Etc. And, in turn, if the supplemental work is lighter, we can push the main work hard. BBB with PR sets for mainwork was how the original 5/3/1 was set up, and it worked just fine.

1 Like

You’ll have to forgive me, but picking an easy approach and then wondering why it’s easy strikes me a bit like this

How dare you :rofl:

The two most immediate solutions are heavier TM or higher percentage of BBB work

Yep, there’s always the option of BBB @ FSL, which is probably the simplest solution if regular BBB is too easy.

It’s what I mean when I say “the goal is to keep the goal the goal”. Why are we doing BBB? Is it to gain muscle? Then we need to make it challenging so that it happens

Goal is to gain muscle to then get stronger at that lift. So for RDLs, for example, to build up the hams, glutes and low back so I’m stronger at that lift in the future. I almost never push for PRs, so accumulating volume via something like BBB seemed like the natural choice. Especially since accumulating a bunch of volume with non-grinding sets got my paused RDL from literally 0 to an estimated max in the high 300s.

Just writing out my train of thought in case my logic doesn’t make sense. Goal is definitely building muscle, or “leveling up” as you talked about in this blog post:

1 Like

Unrelated to the above…

My wife has recently joking that my “boobies” are bigger than hers, as in my chest has grown a ton!! Considering that my joint issues made chest, shoulder and triceps training beyond difficult, it’s awesome that my chest is somewhat noticeable now. It also helps that I’m like 220 - 230lbs, so stuff like push ups are more effective.

Right now, I just do like 20 - 30 push ups total on my knuckles since that’s harder. I just do it at the end of my push workouts. I’ll lean super forward if I’m fresher since that’s harder. I want to get a dip station for my apartment in April or May so I can start dipping.

At the very least, I want to one day hit Wendler’s standard of 10x10 supersetted dips and chin ups with a 45lbs plate. That’s a long-term goal though haha. I mean, I should be able to do 10 chins in a row right now at this weight when fresh despite only starting chins like two months ago, but they still irritate my elbows. Though they irritate the elbows less now.

Still, I’ll try 10 in a row when I’m confident I could do 15 in a row to failure. Basically, no grinding reps allowed.

1 Like

Yup. When in doubt: up the dose, haha.

You’ve got the right handle on this. Gains are made of food. We eat: we gain. From there, training vectors how much of those gains are muscle. Harder training=more muscle (when applied correctly, of course). BBB can be a mechanism to achieve hard training, and it can NOT be that. All of these are simply tools to achieve outcomes.

1 Like

Welp, it’s vacation time, so no real training for over 2 weeks. I can still do push ups, but I just upped the frequency the past few weeks to account for the 2 weeks I’ll be missing.

Random notes:

  1. 227.5lbs paused DB rows getting easier. Yep, this is definitely a good “end weight” lol. If I can’t get a big upper back with this weight, then either I’m doing something horribly wrong, or I’m cursed haha.

  2. The “trick” with steploading, which is what I’ve been doing so far, seems to be:

  • Progress not just with more reps, but also with faster rep speed, more overall control, slower eccentrics, longer pauses, longer squeezes, shorter rest times, etc. Also, focus more on rep totals and not reps per set. Eventually, the weight you choose just gets easier… somehow.
  • Gradually up the volume. So when you’re on a new “step,” start with like 10 total reps. So basically a deload. Just do 10 x 1. Build this up to like 50 - 100 total reps. If doing say, 80 total reps by the end, can do 8 x 10, 10 x 8, 16 x 5, or any other combo. Doesn’t matter.
  • Jump up to next step, meaning you’re back at 10 total reps. The low total volume allows you to recover from the high volume from the sessions before.
  • Full recovery seems to happen during this deload. Meaning alternating a high volume and low volume period is best. Is this basically the leaders and anchors from 5/3/1 Forever?
  • If you go up a step too quickly, it’s fine, but the next one will feel heavier than usual.
  1. On that last note, I quickly jumped to 70lbs for Seated DB Press and 75lbs for Incline DB Press because fuck you, I suck at pressing. Whenever I go to the gym, there are groups of teens with arms literally half my size, but they’re easily doing the 55s at minimum for Incline DB Press. One of them, who didn’t look like he lifted at all, was easily doing 80lbs x 10, meaning he could probably do 80 x 20. And this is AFTER other stuff. So unless you can causally Incline DB Press 80 x 20 or 100 x 10, this random 15 year old destroys you lol.

I suck. We ALL suck compared to this dude haha.

  1. Seriously, I suck at pressing haha. I never got the chance to do all those push ups normal kids did. So I have A LOT of ground to cover. Gonna reduce the volume of Seated DB and Incline DB presses and up the volume of assistance. Lots of push ups, triceps extensions, shoulder raises, etc. And gonna start dips ASAP. I’m just NOW able to do tricep extensions, so might as well push them harder. If I remember correctly, Wendler in the original 5/3/1 says to do 100 total reps if doing bodyweight dips. Definitely want to work up to that as soon as I can. I want to see what a period of more assistance but less volume on the “main lifts” does. I’m so weak at the assistance, meaning I have a lot of easy gains there probably.

  2. 90% chance I do 5/3/1 on RDLs and low box squats. Assistance available at the gym is legpress, leg curls, various squat machines, and split squats. I can casually split squat the 75lbs DBs with no warm up, so my squat should get strong quickly once I actually train it. I haven’t back squatted seriously since doing it randomly for high school sports in 2010/2011. Even though I can front squat 225 for a couple of reps right now (with no practice), I might do a VERY low TM for the low box squats. Like 155. I mean, assuming you never have to go back a step, that’s a TM of 515 after 3 years :rofl:

Basically, let’s see where I am after a year. Lifting is fun, but it’s mostly a waiting game.

1 Like

Yayyyy I did my first dip!!

On vacation, but I found an area to do them… and then did them haha. Did a few negatives, then a few holds at the bottom position, and then like 10 total reps. The holds (esp if over a 3 count) are a lot harder than an actual rep. And they’re a lot easier than chin ups too! And my joints didn’t hurt at all from them!!

Weight was exactly 227.0 lbs this evening. Gonna order a dip station for my apartment later tonight. My triceps are non-existent, so I need to start at like 20 total reps for dips on push days and build that up to 100 total reps.

3 Likes

Hell yeah dude! Dips are fantastic.

1 Like

Any dip stations you recommend? I haven’t checked Amazon yet, but would love a recommendation.

And I’m so happy my shoulders and elbows didn’t hurt! Back in late 2020, my attempt at a “dip” was using my arms to help myself sit up from a chair, and it felt like my shoulders/elbows were imploding haha.

The only one I can vouch for is pretty cost prohibitive

But as a dude with a shoulder made out of asbestos and hope, nothing beats these. I can set them to the exact WIDTH I want to do dips from. Because when the handles are too wide apart it REALLY sucks.

1 Like

Congrats

1 Like