T Nation

Starting the V-Diet: How Much Fat?

I’m a little unsure how much fat per day to aim for on the V-Diet. I’ve re-re-re-read both V-Diet threads and haven’t found a concrete answer.

My current calculations have me at about 20 grams from Metabolic Drive & 20 from fish oil - total with flaxmeal is about 45grams per day. This feels a bit too low to me.

The only flaxmeal I’ve found in Australia has 35 grams of protein and only 10 grams of fat per 100 grams, so it doesn’t seem practical to get much fat from this. (Surely I shouldn’t be going through 200 grams a day of flaxmeal??)

Also - how much fibre should I aim for? I vaguely recall reading 20 grams - which I could get from about 65 grams of flaxmeal, or say 30 grams flaxmeal + 20 grams of benefiber.

Any suggestions? I guess I’m probably overanalysing things but I want to follow it as accurately as possible.

You sure you read that flaxmeal right? That is an abnormally high protein number if I remember my bag.

Anyway… The Metabolic Drive has some in it, the flax has a good amount in it. Did you remember the fish oil? 21 caps per day? thats an extra 21 grams. The diet almost ends up being a 40% fat diet if I remember right.

Don’t worry about it though. People have been having GREAT success with this diet for a long time. The fat content is the last thing you should be thinking about. Remember the whole no food for 28+ days?

Thanks for your reply - I’ve triple checked the flaxmeal and it’s definitely 35 protein 10 fat.

Yeah I have accounted for the fat in MD & fish oil. I’ve got everything set up in excel and currently get 45 grams of fat on non workout days and 47 grams on workout days - which works out to 28% and 24% - If I removed the fish oil on workout days as Chris Shugart did, they would drop to 15% fat.

Even 24-28% seems a bit too low - and I really really don’t want to take flax oil if I can avoid it.

On second thought - are you sure you were getting 40%?

I just had a play around with the figures and to get 40% I’d have to DOUBLE the total grams of fat per day - but that would then make it impossible to get enough protein and still keep the kcal total anywhere near the recommended ranges.

Serving Size 3 tbsp (27.0 g)
Amount Per Serving
Calories
140
Calories from Fat
81
% Daily Value*
Total Fat
9.0g
14%
Saturated Fat
1.0g
5%
Total Carbohydrates
9.0g
3%
Dietary Fiber
7.0g
28%
Protein
6.0g

Thats the flaxmeal/seed that I was using. Shugart had the same breakdown I believe. You can see using that would bring the percentage WAY up. What brand are you using?

I’ve used both Stoney Creek and Melrose - both brands have about the same macros.

Even if I could find the same one you used, I’m still not sure how I could get fat up to 40% while also getting enough protein and keeping kcals low enough.

Using the flaxmeal you mentioned above, to get 40% fat:

300 g of MD, 21 fish oil, and 1.08 flaxmeal:

Protein: 234 (52%)
Carbs: 41 (9%)
Fat: 78 (39%)

Total kcals would be 1900 - well over the 1500 I’m aiming for on non-workout days.

Why are you so worried about getting some magical number of fat? If you really want to make it 40% or so and have it add up to the right amount of calories, do the math. The V-Diet is a unique diet and I don’t remember Chris ever stating that it needed to be 40% fat or any percentage at all, he just laid out the shakes he was going to drink and did it.

Less talk, more action.

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

Less talk, more action.[/quote]

Good point. Everything the would-be dieter needs is in the article. After all, here’s all you eat: a shake with 2 scoops low-card MD, 2 T of flaxmeal; and Surge on workout days.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:

Less talk, more action.

Good point. Everything the would-be dieter needs is in the article. After all, here’s all you eat: a shake with 2 scoops low-card MD, 2 T of flaxmeal; and Surge on workout days.

[/quote]

Exactly. Don’t forget the fish oil. Flameout might even help a little more than just regular fish oil because of the CLA, which has shown to increase fat metabolism in stuides. Chris mentioned instead of doing 21 fish caps on non-workout days, just do 4 to 6 flamouts everyday.

I thought he just picked some rediculously low calorie limit and drank shakes till he hit it.

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Why are you so worried about getting some magical number of fat?[/quote]

I’m not - (you introduced the 40% as a benchmark)

But I am worried that my fat intake was too low because the flaxmeal I have has about 1/3 the fat of the flax Shugart used.

I HAVE done the maths and it’s not possible, either:

protein will be far too low

OR

kcals far too high.

I certainly don’t think the diet will work properly if it ends up being high protein/low carb AND low fat, so I think my concerns are justified.

For now at least I’ll keep the fish oil on workout days and try to track down a fattier flaxmeal.

[quote]oldskinnyfat wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Why are you so worried about getting some magical number of fat?

I’m not - (you introduced the 40% as a benchmark)

But I am worried that my fat intake was too low because the flaxmeal I have has about 1/3 the fat of the flax Shugart used.

If you really want to make it 40% or so and have it add up to the right amount of calories, do the math.

I HAVE done the maths and it’s not possible, either:

protein will be far too low

OR

kcals far too high.

I certainly don’t think the diet will work properly if it ends up being high protein/low carb AND low fat, so I think my concerns are justified.

For now at least I’ll keep the fish oil on workout days and try to track down a fattier flaxmeal.[/quote]

You obviously have a hard time applying principles to specific fact scenarios.

I usually don’t suffer fools, but I’m feeling charitable tonight.

Okay. How much do you weigh? Let’s say it’s 140 pounds. Make sure you get in 140 grams of protein. So… Divide that number by 5. That’s how many grams of protein you should have in each shake.

Now, take 140 and mutiply that by 4. That’s how many calories you should have in protein. Write down that number. Next…

Count the grams of carbs you going to have in each shake. Multiply those grams by 4. That gives you your carb calories. Write down that number.

Finally, add the calories from protein and calories from fat (as determined, above). Write down that number.

Then substract that number from your total allowed calories - i.e., the formual shugar gave in his article. Whatever number you have left is your daily fat calorie intake.

Finally, divide your fat intake by 9. That’s how many grams of fat you’ll have each day. Then divide that number by 5. That’s how many grams of fat you’ll have each meal.

See how fucking easy that was?

Now start your fucking diet already!!!

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
I usually don’t suffer fools, but I’m feeling charitable tonight.[/quote]

I don’t normally suffer dickheads but I’m feeling charitable too.

If you’re going to flame someone and want to avoid looking like a complete tit, it’s generally best not to explain something they have clearly stated they have already done.

As I have already explained, I have entered all the figures into excel - first I established the protein need (210 not 140 LOL) then added fish oil for non workout days &
Surge for workout days, then added flaxmeal to reach the kcal total.

And THIS is where the problem lies.

See the picture - the right column is fat, see how low it is for workout days?

Because my flaxmeal has about 1/3 of the fat the one Shugart used, the totals become very low in fat. A low carb diet which is also too low in fat is going to be very catabolic (ie NOT A GOOD THING!)

To fix this, I’ve bumped up the fat on workout days by including fish oil on those days as well and dropping the flax down to 30 grams (total 48 fat/25%)

Which comes right back to my original very simple (so I thought!) question:

How much fat do I need for the V-Diet?

Is 25-29% of kcals enough?

[quote]oldskinnyfat wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
I usually don’t suffer fools, but I’m feeling charitable tonight.

I don’t normally suffer dickheads but I’m feeling charitable too.

If you’re going to flame someone and want to avoid looking like a complete tit, it’s generally best not to explain something they have clearly stated they have already done.

As I have already explained, I have entered all the figures into excel - first I established the protein need (210 not 140 LOL) then added fish oil for non workout days &
Surge for workout days, then added flaxmeal to reach the kcal total.

And THIS is where the problem lies.

See the picture - the right column is fat, see how low it is for workout days?

Because my flaxmeal has about 1/3 of the fat the one Shugart used, the totals become very low in fat. A low carb diet which is also too low in fat is going to be very catabolic (ie NOT A GOOD THING!)

To fix this, I’ve bumped up the fat on workout days by including fish oil on those days as well and dropping the flax down to 30 grams (total 48 fat/25%)

Which comes right back to my original very simple (so I thought!) question:

How much fat do I need for the V-Diet?

Is 25-29% of kcals enough?[/quote]

So you STILL haven’t started the diet? LMAO. Keep crunching numbers, since the diet is so COMPLICATED. Maybe you’ll be able to start the diet sometime in 2008.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
So you STILL haven’t started the diet? LMAO. Keep crunching numbers, since the diet is so COMPLICATED. Maybe you’ll be able to start the diet sometime in 2008.[/quote]

I’m typing this really slowly since I know you can’t read very fast, but nowhere did I say I haven’t already started the diet.

Now how about you get the fuck out of my thread and take your pathetic ego-building trolling somewhere else?

[quote]oldskinnyfat wrote:
I’m typing this really slowly since I know you can’t read very fast, but nowhere did I say I haven’t already started the diet.
[/quote]

Oh… So you DID start the diet? If that’s the case, then my apologies. I thought you were one of those wankers who rationalized not starting a diet because more “planning” was required. If you HAVE started the diet, then I apologize. To answer your question: Don’t sweat the lower fat intake on training days. The reason low-fat diets are bad does not apply in the V-Diet context. (It’s a long explanation why that is.)

Of course, if you haven’t started the diet… well… if the shoe fits…

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
oldskinnyfat wrote:
I’m typing this really slowly since I know you can’t read very fast, but nowhere did I say I haven’t already started the diet.

Oh… So you DID start the diet? If that’s the case, then my apologies.[/quote]

I’m impressed - I guess I read you wrong. Apologies.

And yeah, I’m on day three.

I guess part of the reason I’m so (too?) concerned about the low fat is that coming off the anabolic diet anything under 50% fat feels low … under 30% feels like nothing!

[quote]oldskinnyfat wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
oldskinnyfat wrote:
I’m typing this really slowly since I know you can’t read very fast, but nowhere did I say I haven’t already started the diet.

Oh… So you DID start the diet? If that’s the case, then my apologies.

I’m impressed - I guess I read you wrong. Apologies.

And yeah, I’m on day three.

I guess part of the reason I’m so (too?) concerned about the low fat is that coming off the anabolic diet anything under 50% fat feels low … under 30% feels like nothing![/quote]

Read the recent Dan John V-Diet thread. It talks about adding in some things to help up the calories and fat.

I believe Chris mentions in the original articles that you do not need to count the calories from fiber as they are basically undigested. You can use those calories to increase your fat intake and still stay in the guidelines. It may not get your fat as high as you think that you need it to be, but it will increase it. And remember the diet is only for 28 days so any negative effects that you feel from the amount of fat will be minimal.