T Nation

Starting Test + Winstrol

Hey Guys,

Brand new here. Did some searching of previous threads and got some answers but wanted to get more direct thoughts on my specific situation.

Next week, I’ll be starting on TRT (300mg Test per week). My doctor asked what my current goals are and I mentioned that I’m dieting down. He then offered/suggested Winstrol or Anavar.

Questions:

  • Does it make sense to take Winstrol right away, given I’m just starting on TRT?
  • If no, at what point would it make sense to add the Winstrol?

Thank you all for your input!

Alex

Is that a typo? Starting at 300mg/week? That’s a huge dose for TRT. Just saying.

A partial answer to your question is that both Winstrol and Anavar will significantly decrease you SHBG and increase your Free T. I find that Winstrol is about twice as effective as Anavar at doing this. I found that a very small dose of Winstrol (2.5mg twice per day) cut my (high) SHBG in about half. It took 10mg of Anavar (5mg twice per day) to accomplish the same. However, at 300mg/week, that’s going to send your Free T off the charts.

There’s some bro evidence that Anavar will increase fat burning, but I think it’s mostly anecdotal, or at least I haven’t seen any actual studies. Then again, I haven’t looked either.

Are you in the EU? I was under the impression that Winstrol (stanozolol) was no longer available in the USA. That the manufacturer pulled out for marketing reasons.

Hi Youthful,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, you read that correctly; 300mg per week. The longer I’ve had to think about that dose the more concerned I get. I’m thinking about going back to my doc and asking if I can start with 150mg. After 6-8 weeks, we can look and my bloodwork and adjust if needed. Any idea why a doctor would prescribe such a high initial dose? This is a bit concerning to me.

So, if fat loss is my primary focus right now, it sounds like Winstrol would not be the #1 choice. Would this be an accurate statement?

Actually, I am in the US. Now I’m curious why I’m able to get Winstrol. I might ask my doc about this.

you sound like your trolling …

post your initial labs , show us your script for 300mgs a week

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Wow… I want this doctor lol, how did you find him?

He’s putting you on a mild cycle.

You can get on stanozolol because it’s a medication doctors can theoretically prescribe… They certainly shouldn’t for TRT, but they can (off label that is)

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  1. No it does not make sense. You want to get dialed in on your TRT before you add other compounds. 150mg/wk is a solid starting dose. Take follow up labs 6-8 weeks later and continue to tweak until you feel your best. This can take 6 months +. If you truly had low T you will be making solid gains on TRT alone. Stick with this for 6mo-1yr before adding anything else

  2. Wait until you stall on TRT before adding anything else. I would choose Anavar over Winstrol. It has more manageable side effects.

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I’ll link studies if I can find the time

Anavar induces a net decrease in visceral fat mass of which is far more potent than test mg/mg

Regarding winny, does 2.5mg impact you’re lipids? Clinical data indicates a mere 6mg/day has a fairly significant effect

Sound sound advice so far. Not sure about the trolling comment though. What would you be trolling for?

Some docs just don’t understand TRT. This one obviously doesn’t. However he is willing to write you a script and that’s a lot farther than most guys get. You really need to post your labs along with the lab normal ranges for any of us to give you good advice. We also need a little more history about you and your symptoms.

What injection frequency is the doc proposing. You are going to get a lot of conflicting advice in this forum on injection frequency. i am a proponent of using smaller amounts more frequently to smooth out the ups and downs of TRT. This will also help to minimize side-effects, most notably conversion to E2 and DHT.

Acceptable E2 levels are also controversial in this forum, but it is my experience (8+ years) that if you maintain T levels at both the peak and nadir (trough) of the injection cycle, your E2 levels should remain within or close to the normal range. I am not a proponed for indiscriminant use of an AI to compensate for infrequent injections of large amounts of T.

Control of conversion to DHT is also controversial. There’s the fear monger group that believe that the use of finasteride causes long-term sexual issues, but I am not in that camp. Keeping DHT within normal range is important because it’s this hormone that stimulates red blood cell production (much more than T) and will cause high hemoglobin/hematocrit issues. There’s good published evidence of this. Another unwanted side-effect of high DHT is hair loss and acne if you are genetically prone to these issues. The more T you inject the higher DHT will go out of range.

As far as starting doses, 150mg is a much better choice, but I think even that is too high. I usually recommend a starting dose around 100mg split into at least 2 doses per week. I much prefer an every 3 day (E3D) injection protocol. Then after about 6 weeks, run new labs and adjust according to how you feel. You can then bump it up further in 20mg/week increments every 6 weeks until you get the labs and symptom relief you desire. Dialing in a TRT dose is a slow process. When you alter your T levels, there is a cascade of endocrine and neuroendocrine changes that occur through out your peripheral body and central nervous system. This can’t be rushed. It also takes about 6 weeks for T levels to stabilize in the body after a dose adjustment.

I agree with the comment regarding the addition of ancillaries to a TRT protocol until after you have dialed in your optimal dose. This applies to both HCG and in particular Winstrol (stanozolol).

Also, I did a little poking around on the internet and confirmed that the brand name Winstrol is no longer available in the USA, but there are still generics (stanozolol) that are available. Also keep in mind that all oral synthetic androgens are toxic to the liver. I wouldn’t exceed a dose of 10mg per day of either Winstrol or Anavar if you plan on long term use. I’d also follow this up with regular liver function labs.

I would probably question any dr who starts someone out at 300. I’d probably look for a second opinion. I’ve never heard of this type of protocol. 100 a week is the standard starting point and then reevaluate after labs.

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I mentioned trolling cause what doctor is gonna say 300 mg to start and hey ya want some Winny too .

When he posts his labs and script for 300mg a week , I’ll take my comment back . In the mean time I know drs aren’t up to par but that’s just ridiculous

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Don’t use c17AA androgens long term, not even 10mg/day (maybe 2.5mg/day)

They did this with methyltestosterone/fluoxymesterone back in the day, numerous case reports now exist.

Hepatocellular adenoma, hepatocellular carcinoma, peliois hepatis, cholastasis/jaundice, extensive dyslipidemia and more

Orals are good for short bursts if you don’t mind fucked up lipids

Thanks! I’d love to add the studies to my literature database!

Regarding lipids, It’s very difficult to tell if my (prior) use of stanozolol affected my lipids. My lipds went way out out of range shortly after I stated TRT. I added in a low dose of generic Lipitor (10mg/day) and that keeps them squarely in the good range. So, it could be that the low dose stanozolol might have affected lipids but the Lipitor was enough to over come it.

A bigger question if it affected liver labs. That too is clouded by my regular use of OTC Naproxen. yes, my liver labs did go up, but in subsequent experiments, I discovered that it was mostly due to the naproxen. I needed it at the time because I had chronic plantar fasciitis, which has been subsequently fixed with proper inserts. I still take daily naproxen, but at a much lower dose, due to chronic pain from orthopedic surgery needed after a motor scooter accident, but liver labs look good.

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Here is a link to a study of a large, well controlled, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical study with HIV patients that showed that 20mg of Anavar was well tolerated and with minimal affects on liver labs compared to the placebo control. However, there was a dose-response affect at 40 and 60mg, so there is an affect but minimal at the lower doses.

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It should be noted oxandrolone is primarily metabolized renally, isn’t associated with the same level of risk for substantial hepatic impairment. I couldn’t find one case report within literature of oxandrolone induced hepatocellular carcinoma/hepatic failure. I’m sure they exist, but I haven’t been able to find them.

Should also be noted if I recall HDL cholesterol was generally crushed (I’ve seen this study before, don’t remember the exact.specifics), and I can link a different study of which indicated a few patients given 20mg/day for 2 wks had LFT’s raise over 2x the upper limit of normal

Studies also exist however indicating oxymetholone is relatively well tolerated in elderly men (50-100ng/day) for up to twelve weeks. Most case reports revolving around serious consequences stem from many months/years of concurrent use. If OP was to use 10mg winny/day for 10 years (aside from lipids) there is a fair chance some sort of complication would occur.

Oxandrolone and abdominal fat, a few more of these studies exist. Generally (mechanisms are multifactorial) oxandrolone has a higher predispensity for reducing fat mass compared to testosterone, Nandrolone, dbol etc.

2.5mg winny… I’m not sure, people with hereditary angioedema use it fairly chronically (in third world countries that is)

Just to add to the discussion, the study with HIV patients did monitor cholesterol and lipids. There was a significant decrease in HDL at all 3 doses (20, 40, and 80mg). Total cholesterol was not significantly different at any of the doses. You have to dig into the full paper (Table 3, page 308) to find the information. Good paper. Worth a read.

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That would theoretically mean the decrease in HDL was evened out by an equatable increase in LDL. (Total cholesterol remaining unchanged)

Yes, LDL was significantly increased compared to placebo treatment at 40 and 80 mg, but not at 20 mg. Click on the link to the paper that i previously posted. That will take you to PubMed. There you will find in the upper right of the screen a link to the free full text article.

Should be noted in terms of suitability for long term use, significant drops in HDL/increases in LDL generally means X compound is best catered towards short term use due to atherogenic potential

Agree! while this was not my primary reason for abandoning an experimental protocol to lower my SHBG (and thus my needed T dose), it was an influencing factor in my decision to allow SHBG to stay at it’s natural levels and overcome it with an increased dose of T. I used Free T as a measure for optimizing the T dose. The information in a dose-response experiment I completed is in the graph below. Unfortunately., due to the recent COVID-19 issue, I’m not going to be able to fill in the last point on the graph (140mg/week in an E2D protocol).

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2.5mg stanozolol differs from 20mg+ oxandrolone per day. I can’t comment regarding how healthy/unhealthy it is, but I’d stipulate it’s most certainly less toxic than 10-20mg oxandrolone/day

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