T Nation

Starting Subq and Adjusting Dosages


#1

I've done my best to learn from all the information that's already posted on this forum. I've struggled with my estradiol level being either too high or too low. I've adjusted my test, hcg, and anastrozole dosages (one at a time) in attempt to get my estradiol in the 20-25 pg/mL range. I've tried to apply what I've learned here to get my estradiol in order. I'd be very grateful for advice on how to adjust my protocol for my specific situation. Here's my labs from each step of the way.

I'm 36, 5'11". Currently 190lbs, approx 14% body fat.

Pre TRT

Labcorp

Testosterone, Serum 357 (348-1197)
Testosterone, Free 9.7 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol <5.1 (7.6-42.6)
LH 4.7 (1.7-8.6)

Start TRT at following dosages:
200mg test cyp 1x per week.
500iu HCG 2x per week.
.5mg anastrozole 1x per week.

6 weeks later. Labs drawn 5 days after test injection.

Testosterone, Serum 511 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone 11.9 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol 10.7 (7.6-42.6)
LH <0.2 (1.7-8.6)

After the above labs, my doctor suggested changing my protocol to:
120mg test cyp 2x per week (240mg total).
500iu HCG 2x per week.
.25mg anastrozole 2x per week.

I followed this protocol for 10 weeks before having labs drawn again, this time with a different doctor (I switched from a T clinic to my primary care doc). Here's my labs, drawn 3 days after last test injection, this time from Quest.

Testosterone, Total 707 (241-827)
Estradiol 40 (< OR = 39)

My doctor was okay with my total testosterone level, but wanted my estradiol to be around 20. He adjusted my protocol to this:
100mg test c 2x per week.
.5mg anastrozole 2x per week.
300iu HCG 3x per week.

I followed the above protocol for approx 4 months before more blood work. Labs 3 days after injection.

Testosterone Total 710 (241-827)
Testosterone Free 151.8 (46-224)
Estradiol <15 (< OR = 39)

My estradiol was <15 (ultra sensitive test is required to measure levels under 15). My doctor is okay with this and told me to continue with same dosages. Next lab was 4 months later, drawn 4 days after last injection.

Testosterone Total 543 (241-827)
Estradiol <15 (< OR = 39)

At this point I made a couple changes.
100mg Test E 2x per week.
.25 anstrozole 2x per week.
250iu HCG e2d.

3 months later, I had my own labs done at Labcorp. Drawn 2 days after injection.

Testosterone, Serum 1056 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone 28.4 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol 40 (7.6-42.6)

It seems that .25mg anastrozole 2x is too little, and .5mg 2x anastrozole is a little too much. So I lowered my testosterone dosage in hopes of making a little less estrogen while keeping anastrozole at .25mg.
Test E 75mg 2x per week.
Anastrozole .25 2x per week.
HCG 250iu e2d.

4 weeks later, more labs at doctor. Drawn 2 days after injection.

Testosterone Total 645 (250-827)
Estradiol <15 (< OR = 39)

I would like to switch to smaller subq testosterone injections, but it seems that I require around 200mg test per week, would this make my subq injection e3d too large? Should I do subq daily or e2d to keep the injection small?

I understand that smaller testosterone injections may allow me to use less anastrozole, but I'm unsure how much less and how to dose it.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


#2

Uh, you might not have even needed any AI at all.

I know this clashes with what most espouse here, but I believe estradiol simply needs to be less than 45 or so and T at 500 or more for most men to feel very good and be healthy. I’ve tested for E2 in the 30’s and 40’s with T in the 700s and 800s and felt absolutely fine, with no symptoms of abnormally high E2.

Same goes for injections. I can’t see the need for injecting more than twice per week-and that’s not even needed by all men–with a long acting ester such as cyp. Of course some men do better with twice-weekly injections, but some men, such as myself, feel no swing in well being on 100 to 120 mg cyp with one shot per week. I tested three times at 700+ post-mid week on 100 mg cyp.

From what I gather, it doesn’t even seem like you need an AI, and you might have been better off starting without one and THEN would have seen if you even needed one.


#3

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Uh, you might not have even needed any AI at all.

I know this clashes with what most espouse here, but I believe estradiol simply needs to be less than 45 or so and T at 500 or more for most men to feel very good and be healthy. I’ve tested for E2 in the 30’s and 40’s with T in the 700s and 800s and felt absolutely fine, with no symptoms of abnormally high E2.

Same goes for injections. I can’t see the need for injecting more than twice per week-and that’s not even needed by all men–with a long acting ester such as cyp. Of course some men do better with twice-weekly injections, but some men, such as myself, feel no swing in well being on 100 to 120 mg cyp with one shot per week. I tested three times at 700+ post-mid week on 100 mg cyp.

From what I gather, it doesn’t even seem like you need an AI, and you might have been better off starting without one and THEN would have seen if you even needed one. [/quote]

I have to disagree here. for arguments sake, a guy with E2 at 44 and Total T at 501 would fit into the parameters of feeling absolutely fine as you have above. I doubt this guy would feel absolutely fine being estrogen dominant. Everyone is different and experiences different high E2 signs. E2 at 40+ and I start having very sensitive and puffy nipples- some guys simply don’t have this, my guess would be due to either the number of receptors at the site, or just a difference in how the receptors act. That’s just an example, I could go on, but suffice it to say that my body just seems to be pretty sensitive to estrogen, high and low (different sides shown).

So .25 2x/wk = 40, and .5 2x/wk = somewhere around or less than 15…this could tell us you need around .75/wk.

so, you could try .5mg every 5 days, which yields .7mg/wk. Or, you could try a different AI altogether, maybe Aromasin.


#4

[quote]dez6485 wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Uh, you might not have even needed any AI at all.

I know this clashes with what most espouse here, but I believe estradiol simply needs to be less than 45 or so and T at 500 or more for most men to feel very good and be healthy. I’ve tested for E2 in the 30’s and 40’s with T in the 700s and 800s and felt absolutely fine, with no symptoms of abnormally high E2.

Same goes for injections. I can’t see the need for injecting more than twice per week-and that’s not even needed by all men–with a long acting ester such as cyp. Of course some men do better with twice-weekly injections, but some men, such as myself, feel no swing in well being on 100 to 120 mg cyp with one shot per week. I tested three times at 700+ post-mid week on 100 mg cyp.

From what I gather, it doesn’t even seem like you need an AI, and you might have been better off starting without one and THEN would have seen if you even needed one. [/quote]

I have to disagree here. for arguments sake, a guy with E2 at 44 and Total T at 501 would fit into the parameters of feeling absolutely fine as you have above. I doubt this guy would feel absolutely fine being estrogen dominant. Everyone is different and experiences different high E2 signs. E2 at 40+ and I start having very sensitive and puffy nipples- some guys simply don’t have this, my guess would be due to either the number of receptors at the site, or just a difference in how the receptors act. That’s just an example, I could go on, but suffice it to say that my body just seems to be pretty sensitive to estrogen, high and low (different sides shown).

So .25 2x/wk = 40, and .5 2x/wk = somewhere around or less than 15…this could tell us you need around .75/wk.

so, you could try .5mg every 5 days, which yields .7mg/wk. Or, you could try a different AI altogether, maybe Aromasin.[/quote]

This is correct being I was speaking in GENERAL terms and did not mention the T:E2 balance or dominance or whatever term. I had it in mind but did not mention it.

I still believe many men tamper with things prematurely or more than necessary. One guy on here who posted with FANTASTIC numbers tampered with his regimen and was even spacing his injections out so finely that he was taking in HALF DAYS into account (eg, once every 3.5 days), as if this was going to make a difference in well-being.


#5

Thanks for the replies!

When I injected 200mg test cyp 1x per week, my total t was only 511 (348-1197) and free t 11.9 (8.7-25.1). My doctor said that I might be a hyper-metabolizer of testosterone. At 100mg 2x per week, my total t is around 700 two days later.

Considering that I seem to metabolize testosterone quickly, I wonder if more frequent subq injections would help with this. I’ve also read that smaller injections will do better at keeping e2 down, but I don’t know how to estimate how much it will affect my e2. It seems that 1mg anastrozole per week is too much, and .5 is too little, but how does this relate to smaller subq injections? Might .5mg be enough if I switch to smaller subq doses of testosterone, say 50mg e2d?

Dez6485- thank you for the suggestion! I guess I’ve made the mistake of only thinking of about 1 week blocks and how to break up 1mg pills. This is a great suggestion, thank you. If I continue with 2x IM injections, this will be my next approach. What do you think of 50mg subq e2d, 250iu hcg e2d, .25mg anastrozole e3d?

Thanks again!


#6

ha! most of us doing 2x/week T Cyp do speak in terms of 3.5 days, which may exact to the level
of being ridiculous, but the practice is much simpler. I do Saturday morning and Tuesday night- that’s every 3.5 days. works great for my schedule. sometimes the Tuesday night gets pushed to Wednesday morning, as I realize
it makes very little difference.


#7

RCA- that could work, might as well try for a month and then do labs. btw- makes no difference if you do IM or subQ with the T. no need to do different dose, it absorbs the same- slightly slower for subQ, but were talking hours. subQ is just easier/more comfortable.