Starting Strength &HIIT Too Much?

[quote]luthar28 wrote:
Well another day in the gym…and I’m still fighting on the squats. Listening to my body – 3 days a week is simply too much. Even without the HIIT, my legs are simply tired ALL THE TIME.

And looking through my log, my gains all seem to come on Mondays – with Sat and Sun as rest days. So what do you guys think about Monday and Friday squats…and instead of squats on Wednesday, I’m going to substitute HIIT after my regular workout (omitting the squats).[/quote]

I did a rippetoe framework a couple of months ago and dropped the squats from the Wednesday session as it was too much for me, was getting pains in my knee. From memory I replaced them with power cleans.

I dropped the overall squat weight on Wednesday as suggested by skidmark. I did 200 instead of 220. While that’s only 10%, it felt way different – like half the weight.

But I did them, felt really good after the workout too (by not completely killing myself on squats, I did personal bests on both bent-over rows and bench).

Today (Friday) I reached my personal best of 225…with energy to spare. So I think that might be the ticket…to make Wednesday a ‘lighter’ day.

I’ve also been keeping track of food using a food journal (rather than keeping a running total in my head). Here I thought I was at 3000 calories…nope, more like 2200 a day. I was severely over-estimating my consumption.

I’m using that online foodlog called Fitday. I really like it.

Thanks for all the input.

Yo Momma - your insatiable appetitie…why do I have a feeling that you’re a big muscle bound dude? Me…I have love handles but only weigh 170lbs so my body simply isn’t demanding what yours is.

It’s way too much to jump from SS training one day, to HIIT the following day, and back to SS training the next. (If that’s indeed what you’re describing.) As I understand it, SS training has you doing a full-body workout every other day. Depending upon what you’re doing for HIIT (sprints?) that could easily not give you enough recovery time. Your body’s likely telling you to slow down.

Perhaps you’re thinking that you need to “do something” on your between days? You’re feeling a bit restless or even lazy on that rest day? You might consider doing something very low impact and low stress. Take a 40 minute walk. Try an easy swim. A bike ride. …But don’t take your bike and burn it up some 10% grade or anything. Got out with the goal to NOT break a sweat. Strange, I know. But that could easily be the ticket to reducing those last 10 lbs.

In the end, if you’re body’s giving you the signal that you’re over-fatigued (and you know that it’s not just wussie self-talk), best to listen to that signal!

[quote]dr.mcmc wrote:
Perhaps you’re thinking that you need to “do something” on your between days? You’re feeling a bit restless or even lazy on that rest day? [/quote]

A couple of reasons why (and one is just pathetic…). First, in John Berardi’s Metabolism Advantage, he says that studies have shown that 5 hours a week is the minimum to get the body you want – so aim for five hours.

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_author/your_5_hours

I also want to get rid of fat so yes, it doesn’t feel ‘right’ to simply lift weights and call it a day. Mind you, that weight lifting is now ridiculously intense and makes me cry like a little girl after each session.

And finally…using his Precision Nutrition, you only eat carbs in the post workout window. Well, that’s not true since veggies have carbs, but I guess you can say ‘non-veggie’ carbs.

I just don’t want to be wasting time. To find it in six months that ‘oh, you were doing SS and not HIT…are you crazy?’ or something like that.

[quote]luthar28 wrote:
A couple of reasons why (and one is just pathetic…). First, in John Berardi’s Metabolism Advantage, he says that studies have shown that 5 hours a week is the minimum to get the body you want – so aim for five hours.
[/quote]

Good thought–and goal. I’m no John Barardi, but I do know how my body feels after a full-body workout: like you, I’m wasted. And I I need more than 24 hours for the exercised body parts to recover. Otherwise, I don’t see improvement. So, to make the math work with your body, I wonder if your five hour goal is more compatible with a simple body part split where you spend those five hours in the gym, but your legs recover on “back” day–and visa versa.

…Or, if you want to stick with the whole body SS routine a bit longer, then possibly make-up the additional hours with the low intensity material?

Best of luck!

I don’t do the Starting Strength program so can’t make that exact comparison, but do and have many times included HIIT along with a recovery-demanding weight training program concurrently.

My policy on dealing with any seeming conflicts if they are is that, the weight training plan comes first. It’s not going to get cut back.

The HIIT on any given scheduled day is adjusted if need be to where the body seems to be.

Besides the best-case plan, alternates when the body is having a harder time are, for me,

A) Doing at moderately slower speed but still the full length of time and still getting the heart rate up similarly high at the end (I don’t measure it, just go by how it sounds in my ears.)

B) Doing it slower and doing only half as much.

C) and D) Doing it much slower and either the full time or half the time.

E) Skipping it entirely if I feel I need a day of full rest from exercise.

Myself, if the muscles of the legs have moderate problems from recent squatting, moderate speed HIIT actually helps them do better.

But if it’s the nervous system that’s fried, then rest is the way to go.

Well, first week of skipping the HIIT. I’ve been doing (gasp) just straight cardio instead. Seems much easier on my legs and I don’t have that ‘burned-out’ feeling all the time.

I’ve increased my squat 5 lbs to 230lbs with good form (well, I think I have good form).

My next problem is my bench. It continues to really lag behind. I’m working on 140lbs and I need assistance every time.

I’m hesitant to try to reset (is that the right term?) simply because it seems like I have to reset EVERYTIME I try to increase the weight.

I mean, I must have the weakest chest in the whole gym, and it’s driving me nuts!

[quote]luthar28 wrote:
Well, first week of skipping the HIIT. I’ve been doing (gasp) just straight cardio instead. Seems much easier on my legs and I don’t have that ‘burned-out’ feeling all the time.

I’ve increased my squat 5 lbs to 230lbs with good form (well, I think I have good form).

My next problem is my bench. It continues to really lag behind. I’m working on 140lbs and I need assistance every time.

I’m hesitant to try to reset (is that the right term?) simply because it seems like I have to reset EVERYTIME I try to increase the weight.

I mean, I must have the weakest chest in the whole gym, and it’s driving me nuts!
[/quote]

Where are you stalling out in the bench press path?

[quote]luthar28 wrote:
I dropped the overall squat weight on Wednesday as suggested by skidmark. I did 200 instead of 220. While that’s only 10%, it felt way different – like half the weight.

But I did them, felt really good after the workout too (by not completely killing myself on squats, I did personal bests on both bent-over rows and bench).

Today (Friday) I reached my personal best of 225…with energy to spare. So I think that might be the ticket…to make Wednesday a ‘lighter’ day.

I’ve also been keeping track of food using a food journal (rather than keeping a running total in my head). Here I thought I was at 3000 calories…nope, more like 2200 a day. I was severely over-estimating my consumption.

I’m using that online foodlog called Fitday. I really like it.

Thanks for all the input.

Yo Momma - your insatiable appetitie…why do I have a feeling that you’re a big muscle bound dude? Me…I have love handles but only weigh 170lbs so my body simply isn’t demanding what yours is. [/quote]

You could even try incorporating front squats on wednesdays - instead of back squats. This could give you time to recover for Friday’s workout.

[quote]luthar28 wrote:…My next problem is my bench. It continues to really lag behind. I’m working on 140lbs and I need assistance every time.

I’m hesitant to try to reset (is that the right term?) simply because it seems like I have to reset EVERYTIME I try to increase the weight.

I mean, I must have the weakest chest in the whole gym, and it’s driving me nuts!
[/quote]

I just noticed in another post that you are eating around 2600 calories. Its pretty hard to make progress on all your lifts when eating so little. Depending on your goals, you may want to increase the calories if you want to increase your bench.

But, I’m in the same boat. My bench was the first to stall (at 120 actually, pretty pathetic). I think this was mostly due to lack of sleep, and as such, a shrinking appetite. So I’ve resetted and I’m trying to increase the calories and sleep.

[quote]oneils wrote:

I just noticed in another post that you are eating around 2600 calories. Its pretty hard to make progress on all your lifts when eating so little. Depending on your goals, you may want to increase the calories if you want to increase your bench.

But, I’m in the same boat. My bench was the first to stall (at 120 actually, pretty pathetic). I think this was mostly due to lack of sleep, and as such, a shrinking appetite. So I’ve resetted and I’m trying to increase the calories and sleep.[/quote]

You think 2600 is too little? Really? I’m eating so much it’s not funny (though taking out carbs, and adding all those veggies, the caloric intake really drops).

What do you think I should up that to?

[quote]skidmark wrote:
Where are you stalling out in the bench press path?[/quote]

Tomorrow is the bench press, so I’ll let you know. I know it’s about two inches from my chest…but I never actually figured out the point I simply cannot lift any further. I will keep a close eye on that tomorrow (wow, that’s pessimism…assuming I’ll fail!)

All right, I’ve been thinking (yes, me)…how do I eat more? I looked at my food log, and it seems I’m only around 2100 calories a day (I assumed I was around 2600).

So following Berardi’s rules, how can I eat more? My ultimate goal is to look good nekkid…so you know, no fat, nice muscles, so I obviously don’t want to go back to eating the wrong foods.

[quote]luthar28 wrote:
skidmark wrote:
Where are you stalling out in the bench press path?

Tomorrow is the bench press, so I’ll let you know. I know it’s about two inches from my chest…but I never actually figured out the point I simply cannot lift any further. I will keep a close eye on that tomorrow (wow, that’s pessimism…assuming I’ll fail!)

[/quote]

I’ve got the same problem. The only thing that has ever worked for me is to work a weight close to the chest for reps - that is, a slightly lighter weight for higher reps and a fair number of sets. That’s my plan tomorrow: heavy 3x3 off of a 2" foam board and then a 5x5 with lighter weight paused on the chest, explosive.

Thinking about it though, static holds with heavier than normal weight at the sticking point might work, too. 6-10 sec for a couple of sets. Isometrics if you have a power rack (I don’t).

I hope you don’t fail, though.

[quote]luthar28 wrote:
All right, I’ve been thinking (yes, me)…how do I eat more? I looked at my food log, and it seems I’m only around 2100 calories a day (I assumed I was around 2600).

So following Berardi’s rules, how can I eat more? My ultimate goal is to look good nekkid…so you know, no fat, nice muscles, so I obviously don’t want to go back to eating the wrong foods.

[/quote]

Hey luthar, I’ve been trying to eat 3500 to 4000 calories a day to gain muscle. I started at a skinny 172lbs (I’m 6foot1) and about 12 weeks later I’m at 190lbs (Within that time I had to take two weeks off from weight training due to work related travel). I did gain fat with the muscle. But I feel a lot better anyway.

To get a lot of protein, I eat a lot of meat (lots of extra lean ground beef), peanut butter, eggs, and drink lots of milk. So I don’t necessarily follow all of Berardi’s rules.

Hope this helps.

[quote]oneils wrote:
Hey luthar, I’ve been trying to eat 3500 to 4000 calories a day to gain muscle. I started at a skinny 172lbs (I’m 6foot1) and about 12 weeks later I’m at 190lbs (Within that time I had to take two weeks off from weight training due to work related travel). I did gain fat with the muscle. But I feel a lot better anyway.

To get a lot of protein, I eat a lot of meat (lots of extra lean ground beef), peanut butter, eggs, and drink lots of milk. So I don’t necessarily follow all of Berardi’s rules.

Hope this helps.

[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I come from the other side (always 10-30 lbs over my ideal weight) so I’m a little gun shy of adding so many calories (I lived on 1800 calories for about 6 years) but I’ll give it a try as I’m stalling so early in so many lifts.

[quote]luthar28 wrote:
oneils wrote:
Hey luthar, I’ve been trying to eat 3500 to 4000 calories a day to gain muscle. I started at a skinny 172lbs (I’m 6foot1) and about 12 weeks later I’m at 190lbs (Within that time I had to take two weeks off from weight training due to work related travel). I did gain fat with the muscle. But I feel a lot better anyway.

To get a lot of protein, I eat a lot of meat (lots of extra lean ground beef), peanut butter, eggs, and drink lots of milk. So I don’t necessarily follow all of Berardi’s rules.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the advice. I come from the other side (always 10-30 lbs over my ideal weight) so I’m a little gun shy of adding so many calories (I lived on 1800 calories for about 6 years) but I’ll give it a try as I’m stalling so early in so many lifts.[/quote]

You will put on some fat, but I find that, personally, if I want to get stronger you need a caloric surplus of at least 1000 calories to feel good. You could try just bumping up to 3100 and seeing how that goes.

Bench Press Update: I failed again at the 140 lbs mark. My squat continues to improve (240 lbs) as does my deadlift (260lbs).

I went and talked to a guy who seemed to know what he was doing. He watched my form on another set (lighter, because I had finished and my arms were toast).

He said my grip was pretty close together, and my wrists were bent too much, putting a lot of the load on my triceps. He had me move my hands out (each about 2-3 inches) and straighten my wrists.

I won’t find out until Monday – but the reps he had me do (at only 125lbs) felt much easier…don’t know if that was the 15lbs weight reduction, or his technique.

What do you guys think? Is what he saying sound about right?

yup. A good hand spacing is one which keeps the forearms perpendicular to the floor. The wrists should be as straight as possible. All this has to do with delivering force to bar. The more direct the path of delivery the stronger you will be.

Variations of hand spacing (wider, closer) can be used to develop more strength in weak areas with the idea in mind of improving your regular bench.

Make sure you squinch your shoulder blades together and stick your chest out when benching. Makes you more stable, creating a better platform for pushing. Try to bring the bar to the lower part of the chest.

Any angle of the arm to the torso other than 90 degrees is preferable and will save your shoulders and give you a stronger bench.

Well, I’m discouraged.

I’m doing the Starting Strength…which is a pretty rapid progression. But since September 1st:

  • my benchpress hasn’t moved (135lbs)
  • my press hasn’t moved (95lbs)
  • my bent-over has increased 10 lbs (155lbs)
  • my squat has increased 10lbs (235lbs)
  • my deadlift has increased 25lbs (265lbs)

Today was an especially disappointing day. I reset my benchpress…and was struggling to even hit 115!

My diet is good. I’m around 2500 calories, about 170-200 protein a day, and I’ve cut down on all the processed carbs.

And the sad thing…I struggle so badly that I feel defeated before I even start lifting…