T Nation

Started TRT without Actual Need for It?


#1

Hi,

Let me start of with the stats and blood work before I get into my actual concerns and questions:

Stats : 

32 years old.
172 cm ( 5 feet 7⅝ inches ) 
Weight : 71 kg ( 156,53 pounds ) 
 Bodyfat : 9-10%

Background :
Based out of Europe (no prescription available here - so everything comes from UG labs )

Used to do steroids on and off when younger (19-23) for 8-12 weeks and then not doing any for maybe 6-10 months and then back on for a few weeks.

Have been completely fine last couple of years without any issues.

I recently came out of a long term relationship of 3 years and basically did not work out at the gym as much as I should have (probably once or twice a month). Needless to say I’ve became lazy and gained some weight. 76 kg ( 167,55 pounds ) .

I decided to go on a cut and start working out when I became single.

6 months later being on a caloric deficit for a few months and working out everyday (drug-free) and leaning out (from 15% BF -> 9% BF) my libido started messing up ( probably due to the cut and low fat intake).

I decided to do a little bit of TRT ( for the health benifits, libido and also so I could increase my caloric intake and still burn off a little bit of fat before the summer ) with the following protocol:

Propionatae 50 MG EOD.

I took my first shot 50 mg ( IM shot) on Sunday evening and had my blood drawn Monday morning fasted.

Using insulin syringes for the shots. A few days later when I got my bloodwork back I changed from IM to SUBQ shots to not elevate my e2 too high and have a more even release of T into my body.

The results for the bloodwork were mostly normal and the only results that came back high and low were the following ( I converted them from their original values => for convenience ) :

TESTOSTERONE: 1210.4 ng/dl  => 42 nmol/L
SHBG:   0.6  mg/dl => 57 nmol/L  (slightly high)
ESTRADIOL: 33,2 pg/ml => 122 pmol/L (slightly high) 
HEMOGLOBIN: => 131 g/L  (has always been low probably due to thalassemia so have never been allowed to donate blood unless I’m on steroids)


IGF1: 194 microg/L (normal)


T3 (free) : 299 pg/dl => 4.6 pmol/L (normal)
T4 (free) : 1.40 ng/dl => 18 pmol/L (normal)

All other values such as HDL, LDL, cholesterol, trigolycerides, glucose, cortisol were within the normal ranges.

Did not get any LH, prolactin values.

Remember that this bloodwork was done the morning after my first testosterone propionate 50MG shot.

So back to my questions :

I actually like having a little bit higher testosterone and I suspect that my testosterone was quite OK and within the normal range for a 32 year old male before I did my first TRT shot.

I will probably not do this forever but I am planning to go off the TRT somewhere late summer (12-15 weeks).

Current status :

My libido is still down so I got me some HCG and arimidex (not used any yet).

I’m taking extra zink and eating a lot of broccoli to lower my e2 - it has not helped yet.

I’ve been on the TRT for 1 week now.

I’m thinking of doing

250 ui HCG EOD the same day as my T prop shot (probably in the same syringe as well SUBQ <-- this ok? )

I will most likely wait with the arimidex and do a new blood work in a few weeks to see if my E2 has gone higher or not and if it has I am thinking of doing .25mg EOD for a total of 1mg/week.

Is the above protocol reasonable ?

Should I start with the HCG and arimidex right away ?

Any other suggestions ?

Can I just come off the TRT in August or September and any suggestions on how to best do that (I kind of realise that I should not have started the TRT but just increased my caloric intake to get my libido back up )

Can I switch the PROP to a 200 mg enhanateh shot if I’m going on a vacation (which means I can’t bring any Testo Prop with me) and then Switch back to PROP when I’m back from my vacation the next week ?

Thank you for taking the time and sorry for the long post


#2

SC or IM injections are 100% absorbed.
SC is absorbed slower, so less peaks and that helps with E2.
SC does not drive more T–>E2

Cholesterol can be too low with your low fat diet. Cholesterol is what your sex hormones are made from, Vit-D3 and cortisol too. Normal ranges do not mean healthy or optimal, it only means that 99.3 %, 3 standard deviations of the normal curve include most people. It does not mean that any value in the range is good, but doctors think that way, because they do not understand that “normal” does not mean good health.
You injected and did labs ~12 hours later? WTF!

You need anastrozole to manage T–>E2

Because of half-life, it takes a week or more for T levels to reach final levels. Same for E2.

Starvation diets can be very harmful.

SHBG is made in the liver, increased by estrogens and reduced by T levels. That may take weeks to normalized. Liver problems can increase SHBG. Starvation increases SHBG. SHBG probably will be so to decrease if you provide more favorable conditions.

T3, T4 need lab ranges please

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.


#3

After injecting T, LH/FSH–>zero very fast. It is too late to test those.
Prolactin can be tested, if high, you might fix that and get off of TRT.

That means nothing, need the numbers.

Getting off of TRT may need some effort to be successful. Many PCT methods are very wrong. See the HPTA restart thread for guidance.

E2 should be managed with anastrozole. Those other methods will fail against your T dose.

Do not mix hCG with your T in same shot, use a different and new insulin syringe.

Start hCG and anastrozole yesterday!

T cyp/eth/prop are all interchangeable.

You are taking 175mg T per week. 1mg/week anastrozole will not be enough. You may need 0.5mg anastrozole at time of injections IF you are an anastrozole over-responder.

TRT is not cycles, you are doing a small cycle and hopefully you are not worse off later.

Do read the stickies. We can only cover the basics here. You need to do self discovery of other things. At least you are not dealing with medical services. You do need to exercise some constraint and will power to avoid creating problems. When you increase T for a while and stop, you can can feel down in comparison and then seek more gear…


#4

Thank you for the very thorough reply.

Cholesterol can be too low with your low fat diet. Cholesterol is what your sex hormones are made from,

(I actually upped my total calories and fat intake since starting the TRT so I am at my maintenance values )

Kolesterol 4.0   ( 3.3 - 6.9 ) mmol/L 
4 mmol/l  = 154.67904 mg/dl


    Triglycerider 0.63  ( 0.45 - 2.6)  mmol/L 
      0.63 mmol/L =    55.75221238938053  mg/dL

HDL  1.5  ( 0.8 - 2.1)  mmol/L 
1.5 mmol/L  =  	  57.915057915057915 mg/dL



LDL  2.2  ( 1.4 - 4.7 ) mmol/L 
2.2 mmol/L  =  	  84.94208494208495 mg/dL

LDL/HDL 1.5 ( 0.4 - 6.6 )

Vit-D3 and cortisol too.

Vitamin D-25-OH   101  ( 50 - 250 ) nmol/L
101 nmol/l = 40.46474358974359 ng/ml 

Kortisol 393 ( 135 - 540 )  nmol/L
393 nmol/L  =  	  14.244291409931135 µg/dL

AST 0.83   ( <0.76 )  mikrokat/L (slightly high) 
0.83 mikrokat/L = 50 U/L 

ALT 0.45 ( <1.1 ) mikrokat/L
  0.45 mikrokat/L = 27.11 U/L 

Normal ranges do not mean healthy or optimal, it only means that 99.3 %, 3 standard deviations of the normal curve include most people. It does not mean that any value in the range is good, but doctors think that way, because they do not understand that “normal” does not mean good health.

You injected and did labs ~12 hours later? WTF!

Yes I should of waited to do the first shot after getting the “clean” bloodwork however I was like a kid on christmas and really wanted to do the first shot … not a good idea in hindsight.

You need anastrozole to manage T–>E2

Because of half-life, it takes a week or more for T levels to reach final levels. Same for E2.

Ok got it :slight_smile: - Will be starting the arimidex at 0.5 EOD (at time of injections ) right away. How long should I wait for new bloodwork to check on the new E2 levels and other stuff ?

Starvation diets can be very harmful.
Yes - won’t be doing that misstake again.

SHBG is made in the liver, increased by estrogens and reduced by T levels. That may take weeks to normalized. Liver problems can increase SHBG. Starvation increases SHBG. SHBG probably will be so to decrease if you provide more favorable conditions.

Ok - I do creatine - so my creatine values are high as well (I’ve lowered my creatine intake now to not put stress on the liver as well as ordered some Liv-52 that I will start taking.

T3, T4 need lab ranges please ( ranges are inside the parentheses )

T3, Free 4.6 ( 3.1 - 6.8 ) pmol/L

T4, Free 18 ( 12 - 22 ) pmol/L

Wow A lot of useful information here! Thanks a lot! I’ve scrolled through a lot of threads and will definitely make sure to read the stickies again.


#5

Total cholesterol = 180 mg/dl is ideal.
<160 is associated with increased all-cause mortality - not health, but doctors thing that it is wonderful

AST can be high from recent training, sore muscles etc.

When to do labs? If you feel great, no hurry. After 3 weeks, things are ready to test. If you feel like crap, your E2 has crashed. No labs for that. Stop anastrozole for a week and then start at 1/4th dose and see how you feel a week later. Do not do any fast changes with anastrozole, takes a week. For small doses dissolve anastrozole 1mg/ml in vodka and dispense by the drop or volume.

fT2, fT3 appear good, perhaps you might need a little more iodine. But it really is important to get your oral body temps reported. Your starvation might have elevated rT3. If body temps are good, no problem!

Odd that you did not have TSH to report.


#6

Total cholesterol = 180 mg/dl is ideal.
<160 is associated with increased all-cause mortality - not health, but doctors thing that it is wonderful

Ok I take it that I should up my cholesterol slightly then :slight_smile: ( HDL with more fats)

yes you are right about the AST - I’ve been training a lot so nothing to worry about then. Thnx.

Will get my oral body temps reported asap.
Maybe I could get some iodine supplements .

Odd that you did not have TSH to report.

Sorry I missed it - here it is:

TSH, Tyreotropin 1.6 ( 0.3 - 4.2 ) mE/L


#7

TSH, Tyreotropin 1.6 ( 0.3 - 4.2 ) mE/L

My body temp :

Morning - Day 1 : 36,2C => 97,16F
Evening - Day 1 : 37,2C => 98,6F

Morning - Day 2 : 35,9C => 96,62F
Evening - Day 2 : 35 C => 95F

Morning Day 3 : 35,9 C => 96,62F
Evening Day 3 : 35,6 C => 96,08 F

Morning day 4 : 35,7 C => 96,26 F

I’ve got me some iodine supplements - will see if that helps - Don’t HCG lower the body temperature as well?