T Nation

Started T-Dawg II- A few more questions.

Hey all. I hope you all had a good holiday season and were able to keep the fat demons away :slight_smile:
I started Doing TD2 this last Monday. Since I have never attempted a “keto” diet and I had difficulty learning all that I wanted on this and other websites, I went ahead and bought the Atkins book since he has been doing it for so long and has great references. I of course took all that I read with a grain of salt and was able to look past all the Atkins marketing and really extract some good basic and advanced info.
SO I have about 25-30 lbs to lose and and deciced that I would probably benefit from an “induction” type phase to start out with. Which for those of you who are not familiar with what Atkins calls induction, its basically a period of 2 weeks or more where you take in only 20 grams of carbs a day. Once I made the “shift” to lipolysis(sp?) I started losing almost a pound per day. Now, even tho I was drinking close to 2 gallons of water a day for the last 12 weeks I think that a good portion of this weight loss is still water weight. However, in the case that it’s not, do you guys think that 6 caps( total per day) of Tribex 500 as well as 2 doses of Methoxy 7 will be enough to retain LBM? I’m just concerned that even though I’m losing weight, it could be some be lean mass. ( or more than I’m prepared to lose)


A run down of the other supplements I take,
EPA/DHA, ZMA, low carb Grow, Udo’s perfected blend, an antioxidant belnd from GNC, CLA, Folic acid *( these are 800mcg but the diet says 800 mg so I take 10 of em. Is this a typo?) Jarrow ALA, and a multivitamin. Weight currently 218.5, 6 ft tall approx 18% bf. Hope this info can help you, help me. (lol)
Thanks
-Newb


Ps. I’m tired of being Newbie. Since nicknames should be given and not made up by the person using it,( even though I will choose the final name anyway) anyone want to give me a new one? Marc Mcdougal? You’ve met me a few times you got any ideas? I have a great sense of humor so all so I want to hear em all. Funny, degrading, flames of names ( lol ) anything you can think of cuzz I’m fresh out of ideas.
L8r

should have mentioned that I am also working out at least 3 times a week and cardio at least 2 times per week and Martial Arts at least once per week as well.

-Newb

I’m pretty sure that folic acid is measured in mcg. 400-800mcg were most likely what was meant.

“From now on, your Delta Chi name is…Flounder.”

Just kidding…had to throw that in (did you catch the reference?)

If you’ve never done keto, I am not so sure I would cut down to 20 g. Keep in mind that Atkins was designed for sedentary folks. It took me about five times of trial and error to master the keto diet, and now I don’t even go full-blown keto, but I use the approach championed by Poliquin/DiPasquale/Alessi. Don’t be in such a hurry to get cut…that’s where you start dropping lean mass and your metabolism will drop. Some helpful advice: don’t knock yourself out trying to get deep purple on the ketostics either. When I was starting out on these diets (Bodyopus) I would go through a 50 pack of ketosticks a week (ridiculous) and thought I was a complete failure if I couldn’t achieve the deep colors. Later I learned that you can be in ketosis rather deeply and still not show up on the sticks. While some may disagree with me especially after David Barr’s articles on here, something you may consider if you’re not doing carbs post-workout is take a load of glutamine with your Grow and especially consider BCAA’s before/during your workout. Good luck!

Lol nice Animal House reference. If it’s the only suggestion I get I think I’ll use it since that movie rules.
Regarding the keto-stix, ( yes I did buy them hehe) I was lucky enough to have this forum, and people like you to let me know not to put much stock in them. I actually use the sense of smell to determine if I’m disposing of ketones via the breath or the urine. Its got that metallic taste and smell. ( you know it when you smell it)

So as to the second part of your remark, thats kinda what I was concerned with. Preservation of lean body mass is important to me. That’s why I wondered what you thought about my use of tribex and methoxy at the reccomended doses?
Will those be enough by themselves to help me preserve “my precious” ? ( Lbm in case you wondered what I meant)
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Thanks as well to DK cuzz I really wasn’t sure about the dosage. :slight_smile:
-Newbie( Flounder?)

Hi, Flounder/Newbie!!! (grin)



I can’t speak to Tribex, but my feelings on Methoxy preserving LBM is probably not. I’ve been using methoxy since October. In that time my RMR has dropped from 1,570 kCal to 1,430 kCal. I’ve been on JB’s Don’t Diet diet, getting enough protein, not doing too much cardio and limiting my time in the gym to 3 or 4 days a week. In other words, I’m playing by the rules, yet I still lost LBM. And I say that because I had my RMR tested using BodyGem/MedGem and the numbers I got re my RMR are based on my LBM.



I still, however, think Methoxy rules. It does everything advertized; i.e., it’s an excellent physique hardening, partitioning agent. It’s just that if your specific goal is to protect LBM, I’d go with an androgen or pro-hormone/pro-steroid.



I know you’re seeing fabulous results (i.e., the weight is dropping quickly), but you’re right, it’s mostly glycogen and water that you’re losing. Water is stored with the glycogen in the muscles at a 4:1 ratio. So for every gram of glycogen you lose, you’re losing an additional four grams of water. Things will slow down to a more normal weight loss by about Week 2. At that point, if you’re
losing more than a pound or two a week, I’d increase caloric intake. But at this point, you’re right on track.

Methoxy really helped me retain LMB and maybe even gain a little (hard to tell) on my last T-Dog diet. I used a double dose.

I’ve only used Methoxy 7 once for the last two weeks of a previous diet, so I don’t have a lot of personal real-world experience; however there seems to be a lot of positive feedback on it. I didn’t catch your calorie level or your meal frequency. Your supplement arsenal looks good…as long as you don’t cut calories too low I think you’ll be okay. What type of carb-up are you going to be using?

Sorry for the late reply :frowning: You know life and all that…
Anyway,
Tampa-Terry: Deep down I kinda knew that it wasn’t going to be enough to retain. I think I’ll grab some 4AD since you can take it a bit longer than mag 10 and my nutrition store has 2 for like $35.00 <8up
Hopefully I can kickstart the old metabolism with some cardio when I’m ready to jump off this crazy meat train.

Monty R: As far as calories go I’m going at about 1900-2000 a day. I like to keep my body guessing and I also try to make sure that I don’t have that hungry feeling, otherwise, cheats come too easily.
On a diffrerent but related subject of my carb up day, once I get off of the induction phase I will be upping my carb intake to the T-Dawg standards and doing one carb up on saturday for my last 3 meals. Quite frankly I could use some suggestions as to what I should eat. I know I have to keep the fat low and I the protein and carb type meals but I’m having real difficulty thinking of acceptable choices. I heard one can even have pop tarts ! Marc McDougal helped me contruct this plan while down here in my town ( Thanks Marc! ) However, I simply forgot to go over good carb choices. I know we talked about the ‘sweet pertater’ so a trip to the Lone Star steak house will be in order I’m sure :slight_smile: MMMMmmmm steak house. I will certainly look at the the websites that list the GI as well and the Isulin index to give myself ideas. DO you have any suggestions?

Flounder
( I think I’ll keep it thanks Monty R. :slight_smile:

Flounder, you were asking for some ideas re carb-ups. It’s something I’ve been studying lately. For me a carb-up is pretty scientific, and specifically NOT an opportunity to go wild. My goal is to restore glycogen levels, boost T3 and leptin levels and, as a result, my metabolism, all the while keeping fat storage to an absolute minimum.



During the week I eat <30g of carbs per day. On Day 3 and Day 7 I carb up. Here are MY rules:


  1. I carb up the first two meals of the day (when insulin sensitivity is highest) or after my workout (if I workout in the morning).


  2. I try to take in >100g of carbs at each of the two carb-up meals.


  3. I try to keep protein and fat at those meals <20g each. I don’t count protein from carb sources. Too much protein and/or too much fat could make it difficult to reach your carb goal. Too much protein causes digestive difficulties/challenges in some. Think of how you feel when you pig out Thanksgiving on protein-rich, carb-rich and fat-rich food. And since insulin is a storage hormone, not only is it storing glycogen, any fat taken in with your meal is going to be swept out of the bloodstream and stored in those fat-hungry, little adipocytes.


  4. I try to take in STARCHY carbs, not sweet carbs. Sugar is a disaccharide consisting of glucose and fructose. The problem with fructose is that it is preferentially used to refill liver glycogen stores, whereas glucose is preferentially used to refill muscle glycogen stores. I want to refill MUSCLE stores, not liver stores. Fruit isn’t bad, but anything made with table sugar (like cakes, pies and the likes), high fructose corn syrup or honey I avoid like the plague.



    My two carb-up meals today were oatmeal (1 cup) with a scoop of LC Grow. Boy, was I stuffed! Meal 2 was spagetti and no-meat, no-fat spagetti sauce. I made it myself with a ton of Italian seasoning, garlic, red and yellow peppers, 2 cans of mushrooms, a little salt and Splenda. Boy, was it yummy!!!



    Additionally, when looking at carb-up meals, take a long-hard look at meals containing rice, pasta and potatoes. They’ll give you the starchy carbs you’re looking for, and the insulin spike is nothing to be afraid of.

Well you could take a cue from Dan Duchaine’s Bodyopus diet and do the first few meals high-GI/II such as liquid drinks, corn flakes etc. and gradually progress to lower glycemic and insulin foods such as oats, sweet potatoes and whatnot. Or, you could do what some do and just eat whatever you want.

As for me…I’ve been doing a 200+ gram carb meal every Sunday afternoon (a la Don Alessi), usually consisting of a huge bowl of white pasta w. garlic pepper seasoning and/or a big bowl of oatmeal/oat bran w. 1 or two bananas and 2 scoops Classic Grow, along with a cup of fat-free cottage cheese w. a small amt. of Grow added. Last Sunday I had those 2 free boxes of Grow bars sitting on my counter and managed to sneak in five bars into that carb-up too, but I limited it to one hour and suffered no negative consequences other than the 2-hour insulin-induced nap I took after the meal.
I usually take a whopping dose of fiber, glucosol, alpha lipoic acid and phaseolamin before this meal as well as a dose of T2 (original formula).

Ok so I can see that both of your approaches are similiar and different. The similarities: Don’t pig out, don’t go crazy, limit the amount and frequency of the carb ups and 200 grams seems to be a magic number. ( or maybe just a co-winky-dink) Eat good quality foods.


The differences: One of you likes to add fruit in the mix the other would rather not, one of you does a one day carb up per week the other does two and meal frequency is different as well.
The conclusion: I see that I can easily follow the similarities and I will certainly have to experiment with the differences tho I will probably not add any fruits as well. You both gave me great info.


Monty R: I have heard that powerdrive can help you avoid that coma but it’s also an added expense. I’m going to give it a shot and see for myself.
I take fiber everyday do you? What’s your idea of a whopping dose? I take 2 servings of the psyillium husks (metamucil) everyday.

Tampa-Terry: Interesting info on the types foods that preferentially refill glucose. I don’t need a liver full of glucose, like you said I need it in the muscles! I think however, that I will try the R+ or R-AlA to try and dispose of any extra glucose I got floating around.
Thanks for all the great responses and info :slight_smile:


-Fl0und3r

I take PD currently and have for some time now. As far as the “coma” it would’ve been avoided had I not thrown in the five Grow bars…lots of sugar and an unnecessary caloric excess for one feeding.

Fiber-wise, I take a mixture of ground flaxseed, psyllium and guar gum w. at least 16 oz. water in addition to what I get out of the oatmeal/oat bran.

Like you said earlier, the carb-up is HIGHLY individual.

I forgot to answer your daily fiber intake question. Yes, I take a ton every day. The majority comes from green beans, broccoli and my salads. If I do a protein shake (Low-carb Grow) I will take the flax/guar/psyllium combo right before I drink my shake. Daily total is no less than 25-30 g. and as much as 40.

im not trying to lose weight now but taking psot cycle methoxy-7, tribex, and “M” together noticed hardness more in methoxy real veiny type appearance, helpes retain gains from mag-10 finished 12 weeks of it

Flounder, that’s what makes T-Nation such a valuable resource, the diversity of experience and the diversity of answers. The more input, the more differing or variant opinions, the better. That way you get to pick and choose. Myself, I’ve drawn from Dan Duchaine’s Body Opus, Robert Atkins, Joel Marion’s Cheat Meals, Bob Faigan’s “Natural Hormonal Enhancement” and Lyle MacDonald’s treatise on ketogenic diets.



Best of luck to you! And be sure to post your results and questions along the way. We all learn from each other – be they mistakes, plateaus or successes.

Thanks all who put in on this topic. Tampa-Terry, Monty Ritchie,DK and Dave.
In about a week I am going to make a determination as to whether I will continue for one more week on the >20g a day. After this period I will certainly try your ideas on the carb up days. I’m going to Vegas in March so I want to look decent. I will no doubt keep you posted :slight_smile: Thanks again to all :))

Doh and thanks to Cerebral Assasin too. :slight_smile:

Which issue was the T-Dawg Diet 2.0 in? I recall reading it but can’t seem to find it when I dis search. Thanks!

The new outline for T-Dawg 2 is in issue 192 in the reader mail.
The new version of T-Dawg 2 ( full version) is rumored to be out in the next issue check both places :))
-Flounder