T Nation

Start Thinking Outside The Box

Hey guys, I think it is time that we start to think outside of the box regarding standard diet and training practices for bodybuilding. For example, we know that the enzymes that cause muscle protein sythesis are raised for roughly 48 hours post workout. So that means the muscle we hit is able to grow for 2 days out of every 7.

Why not cut the volume by a third and train each body part three times a week. We will still be getting the same volume but the protein sythesis will be raised constantly. Just one of the ideas we can use. Anybody want to add any other ideas, feel free. I have more that we can try too-Kyle

You and I are certainly in the same ballpark with trying to inrease frequency.

Everyone needs to figure out their own personal recovery abilities and then train as often as freaking possible within those. Back in the early-mid 90s Phil Hernon was blowing up on the amateur scene(size wise) and leaving most of his competitors in the dust. He figured out that training his body 6 days a week every other day hitting the same bodyparts with low but intense volume let him progress recover grow, progress recover grow, over and over again while his peers were hitting bodyparts once every 7-10 days. I’d rather grow 3 times a week than 1, my recovery won’t allow that sort of training but I’m still going as often as possible to allow recovery. Good thread topic.

I think this is the idea behind 3 full body workouts per week.

It is, but the thing is the volume can’t be crazy. Just more stimulation. Another idea for cardio-Tabata protocol. It is much harder than the intervals of 1 min hard/1 min moderate. Tabata calls for a 20 sec/10 sec off. This is extremely taxing, but it raises EPOC incredibly high which equals a nice after burn effect. Duration of these sessions can be done in 20 minutes or less. Scott, good to know someone else out there is in the same boat as me. I used to use a program like this way back, like ten years ago, then I conformed to the traditionalist. Now, I’m back full circle!

also guys… bear with me im thinking outside the box.

cookie bulking

Just eat the house guys, if you go to a buffet eat the place up directly after your “heavy” work-out once a week. I did this last week, and actually over-did it and threw up. Eat everything mac and cheese, fried chicken. Just dont throw up because you will lose all the protein. In order to do this right, you must first push yourself to the max in the gym, John Henry style. Man vs. Machine. That man was 6 feet, 200 lbs all muscle in the 1840’s. Aint even see the inside of a gym, and aint never touch an ounce of steroids. So Imagine the size you can get with a gym in todays technology world…Just think about it.

Good thread. I just got the Encyclopedia of bodybuilding and Arnold said he likes to train 6 days a week M-S and rest on Sunday. Maybe he was on to something, he did ok.

[quote]schultzie wrote:
also guys… bear with me im thinking outside the box.

cookie bulking[/quote]

I’m with you bro,

Oreo’s pwo, (protein + carbs)
Sugar cookie for carb ups

etc… etc…

Brilliant.

(Prays forum detects a joke)

Arnold also trained each muscle group a minimum of twice each week. By the time he was winning consecutive Olympias, he was hitting each muscle group three times a week.

He was definitely on to something in my opinion.

http://www.guidoandluigi.com/strips/2007-11-02.jpg

[quote]schultzie wrote:
also guys… bear with me im thinking outside the box.

cookie bulking[/quote]

Dude, Dave Tate is way ahead of you.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/oreo.htm

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Arnold also trained each muscle group a minimum of twice each week. By the time he was winning consecutive Olympias, he was hitting each muscle group three times a week.

He was definitely on to something in my opinion.[/quote]

deffinitely was, but IMO it takes time to build up to that kind of level where the body is able to fully recover in such a short time.

Genes do come into play in his recovery ability. However, it is my opinion that people have taken the “overtraining” issue way to far. I see guys saying their doing 3 hour workouts and everybody screams overtraining. Is that individual really overtraining? No because the peruse around the gym, chat it up, and take huge rests sets. They have alot of filler time in non intense workouts.

I’m afraid “overtraining”, while true to some degree, has largely become an excuse to work less hard in the gym and spend less days of the week there. Maybe I’m an idiot…but maybe not. Guys like Arnold weren’t loaded with all the “knowledge” we now have. They didn’t go crazy about whether they were taking whey protein hydrolysate or isolate or concentrate or casein etc… at certain times of the day.

I know they took steroids and had elite genetics, but equally, they busted their dicks into the dirt when it came to lifting.

My point is…while science and “overtraining” and all these other “no-no’s” of modern bodybuilding are a good thing…I think for many they are turning into reasons (read: excuses) to not push themselves quite as hard.

People also must learn to lift through soreness, alot of people are afraid to lift if their sore. Just cuz your muscle is sore from two days ago doesnt mean you should skip the gym today. Lift through it. Muscular soreness I really dont think is the best guage of recovery. I think people should lift intensely as often as the CNS allows. CNS recovery is the big issue, but most people, in all honesty, don’t train hard enough or often enough to truly wear out the CNS.

/Rant Over
Lift Heavy, Lift Often, Work through soreness, Push through pain. Eat big, sleep hard. I truly believe if all these things are REALLY done on a regular basis for an extended period of time, it is impossible to NOT grow. Even you “hardgainers”

Sorry for the length.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Genes do come into play in his recovery ability. However, it is my opinion that people have taken the “overtraining” issue way to far. I see guys saying their doing 3 hour workouts and everybody screams overtraining. Is that individual really overtraining? No because the peruse around the gym, chat it up, and take huge rests sets. They have alot of filler time in non intense workouts. I’m afraid “overtraining”, while true to some degree, has largely become an excuse to work less hard in the gym and spend less days of the week there. Maybe I’m an idiot…but maybe not. Guys like Arnold weren’t loaded with all the “knowledge” we now have. They didn’t go crazy about whether they were taking whey protein hydrolysate or isolate or concentrate or casein etc… at certain times of the day.

I know they took steroids and had elite genetics, but equally, they busted their dicks into the dirt when it came to lifting.

My point is…while science and “overtraining” and all these other “no-no’s” of modern bodybuilding are a good thing…I think for many they are turning into reasons (read: excuses) to not push themselves quite as hard.

People also must learn to lift through soreness, alot of people are afraid to lift if their sore. Just cuz your muscle is sore from two days ago doesnt mean you should skip the gym today. Lift through it. Muscular soreness I really dont think is the best guage of recovery. I think people should lift intensely as often as the CNS allows. CNS recovery is the big issue, but most people, in all honesty, don’t train hard enough or often enough to truly wear out the CNS.

/Rant Over
Lift Heavy, Lift Often, Work through soreness, Push through pain. Eat big, sleep hard. I truly believe if all these things are REALLY done on a regular basis for an extended period of time, it is impossible to NOT grow. Even you “hardgainers”

Sorry for the length.[/quote]

good post, and for all you pansies,

“just shut up and squat”

Along the lines of the first post and Scott’s mention of Phil Hernon, a while ago I was looking into how Phil trained. I didn’t find anything precise (if someone knows I’d love to hear it) but I did find this [very long] post by someone who knew him that I thought people might find interesting.

Lats wrote:
A LITTLE STORY FOR YA 2
WELL LET ME FIRST STATE THAT PHIL IS GOING TO LOVE THIS ONE. i went this weekend to take those filler photos i told ya about last time. it has been a while since i had seen my buddy although we do not live far from one another (a couple of hours). years ago when i would make the trip to train with him on the weekends (before we both had kids) he did more of a high volume training routine. back then he was still going to school to get his degree in exercise phys. even then he was a complete genetic freak. extremely strong on all movements. thicker then shit. i saw him when he won his state title and he was awesome. no one could even come close. then he sent me photos of his condition 3 weeks out from the jr nationals and i thought there is no one that could handle him. but, as you know things can change quickly. he ended up getting food poisoning that put him in the hospitol overnight from dehydration.

even while he was getting ready for the jr’s i never asked him about his training. the talk usually centerd around his work and his new baby ect. he decided not to purue a job in his degree but, took over his fathers biz which is doing very well. my wiofe sees him all the time since when i am working she will go down to see the new baby which she is godmother of. she would tell me how big he was getting and that it was almost “too much”. of course , there is never such a thing as “too much”. lol. so i picked up my camera and went to see him train.
i walked into the gym and of course, he is 20 minutes late. he is wearing cut off sweats and a baggy t shirt. his quads are beyond big. the best legs i have seen on a non pro his height. his only down fall is his calves. he tears the shit out of them but, it is a struggle. he is 5’6 and this day he weighs 239 and very lean. (i will post pics of him very soon. face blurred of course lol) his best upper body group is his delts and traps. he tells me he is doing chest back shoulders today. WTF!!! i ask him howm many sets of each. he says three. i decided to wait and see what he was going to do and not ask a ton of questions just yet. he and his workout partner start doing pushup and light lat pulldowns just to get blood moving. after just a few minutes of this he heads to the incline bench. he claims he can do over 400 pounds for reps on it. his partner nodds in agreement. he does a set with 225 pounds for 6 reps pausing at the chest each rep to get a stretch. he then goes to 315 and does the same. warmups are over. remember that this is free bar. he loads up for one big set. pounds is put on the bar 405. he unracks it and proceed to do 5 controlled reps to failure…i shit a brick. he then moves to the flex leverage upright bench press. he puts 4 45’s and a 25 a side. no warm up. he cranks out 8 good reps with it before failure. we then head over to the incline set low and he proceed to grab the 125’s dumbells. he gets them into position and nails 13 good reps. he then says chest is over. he rested only a few minutes between sets. next was lats. one warmup of hammer front lat pulldown and he was set. he puts 4 45s and a 25 on each side and gets 5 good ones and a cheat one at the end. we then head over to the dumbell rack and he grabs a 165 pound dumbell and starts doing one arm rows. he gets 9. after catching his breath he goes to the low pulley row and puts the whole stack on. it is hard to tell how much weight it is because it is a old machine and the poundages are worn off the plates. anyway he did the whole stack and hit failure at 11 reps. next was shoulders. he started at the rear delt pec dek. it was a icarian model. he 190lbs for 7 good reps. he then moved to the dumbell rack for side laterals. he grabbed the 65’s and nailed 10 good reps plus some partials. last was hammer shoulder press. 3 plates and a 10 each side for 13 reps. then shrugs. he loaded up the hammer standing shrug and did about 11 to 12 reps. last was two sets of abs done weighted on the leg raise. 42 minutes had past.

now for the logic behind it. he states that he only goes by research that proves how muscle grows. he does not want to get involved in anedotol evidence. (can you tell he has a degree lol) he told me the next day was arms and legs. then he would repeat the first days workout. the only difference the second chest, back and delt workout would have is he would reverse the order of the exercises and that would give the first days heavy exercise a break by having it do 11 to 15 reps instead of 5 to 7 reps. this would be repeated until he felt he needed a break for a day. he came to this workout after weighing all evidence of how a muscle grows and responds. he says that he rarely gets to sore from this workout but, that soreness is not a indicator of a muscle readiness to be worked again. even if a muscle has slight soreness to it, it does not mean you cant train it. he says that if you are very sore two days later then you have done much to much volume. he went into detail here so i will give you the short version. he says that muscular growth occurs within 36 hours of stimulous. that is when protein synthesis is at its highest. he is basing this on many studies that he researched when he was going to the university. he tried to explain that muscle growth was not hard to come by. all that was needed was a disruption of muscle fiber that required it to respond to certain stimuli. doing too much volume was the reason for the long breaks between sessions that is seen by most bodybuilders. he believes that if it takes that long to recover (which he claims is mainly nerve recovery then muscle fiber recovery) then you are wasteing a hugh amount of time. you are giving the muscle the stimulous to go one step forward then waiting to long and making it go back to its original state. he believes that a muscle is going to start degenerating in about 48 to 72 hours.
based on this he says that bodybuilders need to cut volume back greatly so that they can take advantage of this time span. he believes that one should find out how much volume they can get away with while still being able to train the muscle in 48 hours. also, he states that the other reason for the low volume is to not tax the central nervous system which takes more time to regenerate that muscular tissue. when he feels he needs a break he will take a extra day off. the varying of the reps scheme he says is essential to take advantage of different tut schemes and is needed to have optimal growth. he switches the exercises rep schemes so to avoid injury in any certain plane of motion and to give that joint a break.

now if this seems strangly similar to phils training routine, i noticed it to. i brought up phil’s routine to him and how it worked (as best i could anyway) i told hime that it was a little to strange that you had the same reasonings. he first said " you talked to phil hernon ???" what happened to that guy"??? after explaining phils life story and his new addiction to penis pumps he said “isnt that wild… we do have similar training styles. he must have weighed all the evidence and did alot of studying on the logistics of muscle growth” while he was talking i was thinking about how the penis pump might work for me… i snapped out of it and asked more questions while he sucked down a protein shake. i brought up past champions that did not use his system and they had great muscular growth. i then played devils advocate and said that maybe this workout only worked for phil and him because of their great genetics… “look idiot, it is based on science pure and simple. not a fucking weider principal. weider set bodybuilding science back 40 years. most, if not all past champs got there by superior genetics and their bodies ability to assimulate drugs well. not because any real thought went into their program”. after the sting of the idiot comment wore off i asked about drugs.

he stated that drugs are not an excuse to up volume. find what works naturally and then exploit it even more through proper drug use. he said that the reason why some people do not respond well to drugs is that they do not properly understand why they work. he said “it all comes down to protein intake. steroids up protein synthesis big time. hell, you can even grow a little not training if you take gear and have a huge amount of protein in your system. now add just enough stimulous to disrupt cells and fiber and there you have it. now hit that muscle often as possible and you will get bigger. much bigger”

while i am at it, the leg/arm routine he gave me goes like this. 1 set leg press (one leg at a time) 5 to 8 reps, one set leg ext (one leg at a time) 9 to 11 reps, one set squat for 12 to 15 reps, standing leg curl one set 5 to 8 reps, stiff legged deads one set 10 to 12 reps. arms: hammer preacher curl 1 set 5 to 7 reps, hammer dumbell curls one set 8 to 10 reps, cable curl one set 12 to 15 reps. lying dumbell ext one set 5 to 8 reps, pushdowns one set 8 to 10 reps, one arm overhead ext one set 12 to 15.
so to recap the boys theorys:

  1. train a muscle often.
  2. keep protein at very high levels to add in the needed synthesis
  3. train just enough volume per bodypart so that you stimulate a little growth but are able to train it again two days lately.
  4. train with low enough volume so that you do not excessively tax the cns. (which takes much longer to recover than muscle damage)
  5. remember that gear is an aid to better protein assimulation. which leads to gains. if they have nothing to work with (protein and stimulus) then they are worthless.
  6. you can train a muscle when it is sore. soreness is not an indicator of recovery.
    whether you agree with him or not, it makes since when he talks about it. but, he really believes what he says and believes that he has science on his side. so , believe it is worth a try… got nothing to lose and maybe some tissue to gain…if not you will always have the knowledge it brought ya…

That penis pump thing with Phil is too hilarious, too bad probably no one on here gets it haha. That guy lats is a real smart cookie himself and I read that story at PM a few months ago, surprise surpise some of the biggest guys start coming around to pretty similar conclusions.

That type of template is honestly how I would love to start a very enthused young bodybuilder out, as they got more advanced they might need to spread it out, but high frequency along with low enough volume(which necessitates a take no prisoners type person in the gym, no pansies allowed) to recover from it has something to it that most are missing out on.

Great stuff so far guys. I agree that we need to look at what the science is telling us and not just go on tradition. That is the only way for us to advance. Look at how most people still perform their cardio. I know HIIT is hard and painful, but it works! People can give all the reasons they want as to why it is not good, but the truth is that they don’t want to deal with the pain level IMO.

I have been training each body part 3 days a week and feel great, even now in contest prep mode. I used to do this back in the day when I first started lifting and funny thing is, I was following a program that was taken from the Easter Bloc of Europe and how their Olympic weightlifters used to train. They knew their stuff and certainly had the science to back them.

Bulgarian Burst?

Think outside the box ? What box ? I just train every day like im going to war. So the only box im thinking outside of is a coffin box.

[quote]triple-10sets wrote:
Think outside the box ? What box ? I just train every day like im going to war. So the only box im thinking outside of is a coffin box. [/quote]

well i guess you can’t think inside a coffin box…i see your point