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Squatting for Strength Not SIZE?

i was considering embarking on the 20-rep squat program until i read a thread here in which people concluded that the program did little for increasing one’s 1RM.

apparently, the program puts on a great deal of muscle size and you get good at high-rep squatting, but you won’t see any considerable gains in your 1-rep max when comparing it after the program to what it was when you started the program.

so, is there a program like the 20-rep squat program but that is designed for increasing your 1-rep max?

[quote]FROGGBUSTER wrote:
i was considering embarking on the 20-rep squat program until i read a thread here in which people concluded that the program did little for increasing one’s 1RM.

apparently, the program puts on a great deal of muscle size and you get good at high-rep squatting, but you won’t see any considerable gains in your 1-rep max when comparing it after the program to what it was when you started the program.

so, is there a program like the 20-rep squat program but that is designed for increasing your 1-rep max?[/quote]

20-rep squats will certainly boost your 1RM if you’re a total beginner. The stronger you get, the closer you’re going to have to get to working with limit or near limit weights, at least some of the time.

But I think for an intermediate-level guy, Korte’s 3x3 will get your squat up as well as anything, it helped me a lot. The program doesn’t use a lot of super heavy lifts but you will become a squatting machine. My technique is a million times better than it was before going through Korte’s program.

Which isn’t saying my squat technique is perfect; and also Korte did very little for my bench press.

If you want something a little more complex with more frequent exposure to heavier lifting, maybe something like Albert Fomin’s template (do a search), or Boris Sheiko’s. Point being I think you should squat frequently, at least 2-3 times/week.

But there are many ways to go about it…

[quote]FROGGBUSTER wrote:
i was considering embarking on the 20-rep squat program until i read a thread here in which people concluded that the program did little for increasing one’s 1RM.

apparently, the program puts on a great deal of muscle size and you get good at high-rep squatting, but you won’t see any considerable gains in your 1-rep max when comparing it after the program to what it was when you started the program.

so, is there a program like the 20-rep squat program but that is designed for increasing your 1-rep max?[/quote]

Two potential suggestions.

The classic 20 rep breathing squat program often included a heavy set of 4-6 reps beforehand. Doggcrapp training actually still uses this wisdom, so that’s an option (i.e. a heavy set of 4-6, then a backoff, “breathing” set of 20).

Another variation of the above is to do at least one “heavy” session of ~4-6 per week besides the 20 rep breathing set(s). Same idea, just different days.

In short, there’s no reason you can’t do heavier stuff in the same program as the higher rep, “breathing” style squat. It’s actually a common form of the 20 rep squat program that was employed by a lot of those golden era types.

You don’t have to base a program on 20 rep squatting, it can be a tool to use when you want/need it.

I use 20 rep squats on my RE days for squat. I then employ the normal ME day to squat with low reps and high weight. Not that my 20 rep isn’t a higher weight, but it’s not a high %.

It’s a lot of fun.

smolov cycle
strength and some size, but a whole hell of a lot of strength

I don’t have a specific program to give, but training for OL doing squats of all types with a common rep range of triples and occasional 5’s, mixed with pulls for triples has gotten me a lot stronger while only putting on a comparatively small amount of muscle in the legs.

I’d go with a Westside/DeFranco type template for lower body, but for the accessory work, keep the overall volume low if you’re going for just strength and not so much size.

pavel tsatsouline’s power to the people comes to mind. very low rep and low set approach, but lots of repetition. Visit www.dragondoor.com.

This type of question pops up every now and then and each time I honestly don’t understand how somebody who knows their ass from an anthill can pose this question.

You have to have muscle mass to have strength. Period. Unless you are a professional jockey, ballerina or Abercrumbie model I don’t understand this aversion.

In other words, where the fuck are you coming from with this question?

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
This type of question pops up every now and then and each time I honestly don’t understand how somebody who knows their ass from an anthill can pose this question.

You have to have muscle mass to have strength. Period. Unless you are a professional jockey, ballerina or Abercrumbie model I don’t understand this aversion.

In other words, where the fuck are you coming from with this question?

[/quote]

Sorry, man but this isn’t clear cut science.

I’m bigger than some power lifters and they blow me away strength wise.

OP, the classic set and rep scheme for strength is 5x3 through 5x5 (@80 - 90 % RM). That’s for heavy weights. Speed work is in the 8x3 to 10x3 range, at 60% RM. Those would be for your main three lifts. Accessory work is 3x6 to 3x8 range.

i am looking for a program that will increase my 1 rep max; the 20-rep squat program will not work well to this effect. is that simple enough?

[quote]FROGGBUSTER wrote:
i am looking for a program that will increase my 1 rep max; the 20-rep squat program will not work well to this effect. is that simple enough?[/quote]

You are right. The 20 rep scheme will not work.

Do 5x5 (max effort), wide stance squats. Do speed work with bands and chains to develop your CNS (dynamic effort). Progress every week either by increasing your reps or weight. Do a max effort day and then a dynamic effort day, both the same week. That means squatting twice a week. 5x5 one day and then 8x3 the other.

[quote]kroby wrote:

I’m bigger than some power lifters and they blow me away strength wise.

OP, the classic set and rep scheme for strength is 5x3 through 5x5 (@80 - 90 % RM). That’s for heavy weights. Speed work is in the 8x3 to 10x3 range, at 60% RM. Those would be for your main three lifts. Accessory work is 3x6 to 3x8 range.[/quote]

And you are giving this kid advice?!?

[quote]FROGGBUSTER wrote:
i am looking for a program that will increase my 1 rep max; the 20-rep squat program will not work well to this effect. is that simple enough?[/quote]

Sure.

However, that puts your question in an entirely different context.

Is that simple enough?

[quote]apwsearch wrote:

And you are giving this kid advice?!?

[/quote]

And I have no valuable information in the past year that I’ve been training with power lifters?

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
FROGGBUSTER wrote:
i am looking for a program that will increase my 1 rep max; the 20-rep squat program will not work well to this effect. is that simple enough?

Sure.

However, that puts your question in an entirely different context.

Is that simple enough?[/quote]

please read my original post. the implications of THAT post and my response to your first post are one and the same. there is no ‘other’ context; my purpose is and always has been asking T-Nation for a program (hopefully a linearly based one LIKE the 20-rep squat program where you add weight on every time) that will increase my 1-rep max.

you obviously misread, but thank you very much for trying.

[quote]FROGGBUSTER wrote:
please read my original post. the implications of THAT post and my response to your first post are one and the same. there is no ‘other’ context; my purpose is and always has been asking T-Nation for a program (hopefully a linearly based one LIKE the 20-rep squat program where you add weight on every time) that will increase my 1-rep max.

you obviously misread, but thank you very much for trying.[/quote]

There we go! Now we are getting somewhere.

Now let me get out my crayons and hold your hand like a small child as I explain it to you.

A post titled “Squatting for Strength not Size,” accompanied by the only point of reference being given as a 20 rep program does not give most experienced lifters any meaningful information other than that you don’t know a whole lot and want to make sure you can still fit in your “traditional cut,” or won’t look fat in your leotard.

There are probably a bazillion articles on this site to help you with your quest. Quit typing and start reading.

[quote]kroby wrote:
apwsearch wrote:

And you are giving this kid advice?!?

And I have no valuable information in the past year that I’ve been training with power lifters?[/quote]

Based on your response?

Looks like you are still learning.

apwsearch:

instead of being so condescending, can you please help me? i am admittedly very inexperienced in strength training; hence the existence of this very thread! i would be delighted if you could point me in the right direction. do you have a particular article in mind that you could link me to to help me achieve my goal? i’m up for a good read.

thanks (again =P).

When I was going for a squat increase I took an initial 1RM and then did 85% of that for 5x5. It was hard stuff and even harder when I went up 5lbs each session. My weight went up because all that squatting made me hungry but, my squat shot way up from the original. I am also a fan of doing a 1RM challenge once every other week. If your goal is 1RM that is. I found it really helped to guage where I was at and if I needed to up the weight or change the program.