T Nation

Squats & Deadlifts In the Same Workout

Beginners
#1

As some of you know, im doing the beginner strength thingy rippetoe program.
However deadlifts is only done on one of the workouts (theres two: A and B) whereas squats are in both.

Would i be able to do squats and deadlifts every workout?

Using the rippetoe scheme here, that i will follow, id only be doing weight lifting on monday, wednesday and friday. This means id have a break inbetween each training session.

I want to add deadlifts because i want to do sumo and conventional. I will also switching out with front squats and back squats.

My rippetoe program (a bit modified,and added my triathlon training) is as such:

Workout A:
sets | reps | workout

3 5 squats (back)
3 5 Bench press
3 5 Deadlifts (conventional)
3 5 Dips
3 5 Leg raises (i might take this out)

2 hour break minimum

Swim
Bike

Workout B:

3 5 squats (front)
3 5 Standing military press
3 5 Deadlifts (sumo)
3 5 Power clean
3 5 Pull ups
3 5 Romanian Twists

2 hour break

bike
run

Scheme:

week 1
Monday: A

Wednesday: B

Friday: A

week 2
Monday: B

Wednesday: A

Friday: B

Repeat ad nauseum

Would i be doing too much deadlifting and squatting? I am pretty much a beginner in terms of weights, so maybe it would be difficult for me to burn out.

Thanks

#2

I say just try it out and see what happens. I found out that deadlifting and squatting every workout drained me completely. I’ve get more progress squatting 3 times a week and DL once.

Although, you can always substitute a conventional deadlift with a rack pull; I’ve heard these are not as hard on your system and train essentially the same muscles.

#3

deadlifting 3x a week is ridiculous.

or if you still want to pull 3x a week:

Monday:
back squats 3x5 squats
cleans 5x3

Wednesday:
front squats 3x5
deads do doubles/singles to a max

Friday:
back Squats 3x5
cleans 5x3

alternate with bench/row and military/chin each day.

deadlifting each day will be counter productive

#4

I disagree with Zep. I think you can do it.

The only reason I can think it would be bad is if it increases the volume beyond what your system can handle. Truthfully, if you can recover and gain off of the routines you just posted, then added deadlifts to the B day shouldn’t make too much of a difference.

That said, I don’t think the second deadlift will provide stimulus over and above what you already have, therefore I don’t think deadlifting more will cause your deadlift to go up faster.

Try it, see if it works.

#5

I might try it but if the general concensus is counter productivity, then ill let it go. However, how can i improve both my sumo and conventional deadlift. I’m sure there is some carry over but the muscles used are slightly different (sumo is more legs, conventional is more back).

Since the A and B switch over, that means one week ill do one deadlift workout and the second week ill do two deadlift works out.
Would it work if i had that the 2 dl workout week i make it sumo and the 1 dl workout week i make it conventional.

Or am i being too anal?
Should i just do either sumo or conventional and shut up about the other one?
Also, i have short legs in relation to my torso and arms. (short legs, average torso and average arms). Would i be more fitted for sumo or conventional?

Thanks funkhauser, zephead and Otep. You’re giving me informative answers :slight_smile:

#6

[quote]blazindave wrote:

Or am i being too anal?[/quote]

If your strength levels are such where you should be using the starting strength program, I’d leave the template and not fuck with it until my gains stopped from it. So yes :-p

Why do you want to pull conventional and sumo? Your goal is for the triathlon right? God forbid I say this, but the conventional pull is more “specific” to what you’re going to be doing. It’s just like rippetoe wrote about not using a powerlifting stance squat.

Keep an eye on your recovery obviously, your endurance training adds another tax onto your body, but if you’ve been at it for a bit it’s easier than someone who’s starting at both obviously.

#7

when I started the stronglifts 5x5 I misread it. it says to split days a/b and you squat on a and deadlift on b

I was for weeks squating and deadlifting on the same day. I also worked out every day instead of 3 days a week again misreading it.

it worked great I was drained but I wasnt lifting heavy untill about 6 weeks into the program.

I then realised that you do one or the other and not both but I liked the way I felt after doing both so I kept it up
heres what I did in this order.

squat
dead
bench/overhead press
row
dip

I did not do the pull ups because I started at about 300 pounds and can not do pull ups
i switched bench with standing overhead on day B everything else stayed the same and yes squat and dead same workout

#8

[quote]Otep wrote:
I disagree with Zep. I think you can do it.

The only reason I can think it would be bad is if it increases the volume beyond what your system can handle. Truthfully, if you can recover and gain off of the routines you just posted, then added deadlifts to the B day shouldn’t make too much of a difference.

That said, I don’t think the second deadlift will provide stimulus over and above what you already have, therefore I don’t think deadlifting more will cause your deadlift to go up faster.

Try it, see if it works.[/quote]

IMO it really depends at how close to his max he’s pulling at. pulling at 90%+plus 3x a week is asking for problems. Alternating with cleans, snatches, highpulls, speed pulls or whatnot would probably be more productive

#9

If you want to work on both your conventional and sumo deadlift, alternate your deadlift days, but don’t do deadlifts every workout. They are particularly hard on your lower back and that takes a long time to recover.

If you are going to do Rippetoe, do it as written. Otherwise you are doing something else and you will not get the results as advertised. IMO you will overtrain your lower back and slow down your progress.

#10

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:

If your strength levels are such where you should be using the starting strength program, I’d leave the template and not fuck with it until my gains stopped from it. So yes :-p

Why do you want to pull conventional and sumo? Your goal is for the triathlon right? God forbid I say this, but the conventional pull is more “specific” to what you’re going to be doing. It’s just like rippetoe wrote about not using a powerlifting stance squat.
[/quote]

My goals are split up between kyokushin (karate) and triathlon. However in terms of training i put more emphasis on triathlon.
I figured sumo would be more specific because in biking (mainly ass and quads)and running (mainly calves and hamstrings) leg power is the “most” important.

Sumo (as ive read in now over 20 articles :P)puts more emphasis on leg power/strength and i would gain greatly from it. I’m sure it would help greatly for sprints on bike or run. The back would only really help you stabilise unless you’re going against strong wind or on a steep hill. This holds more true for biking than running (imo).

[quote]nichaaron wrote:
when I started the stronglifts 5x5 I misread it. it says to split days a/b and you squat on a and deadlift on b

I was for weeks squating and deadlifting on the same day. I also worked out every day instead of 3 days a week again misreading it.

it worked great I was drained but I wasnt lifting heavy untill about 6 weeks into the program.

I then realised that you do one or the other and not both but I liked the way I felt after doing both so I kept it up
heres what I did in this order.

squat
dead
bench/overhead press
row
dip

I did not do the pull ups because I started at about 300 pounds and can not do pull ups
i switched bench with standing overhead on day B everything else stayed the same and yes squat and dead same workout[/quote]

How did you progress on both (squat and DL)? How long till you had to drop the deadlift or whatever; if you had to drop it, that is?

[quote]stuward wrote:
If you want to work on both your conventional and sumo deadlift, alternate your deadlift days, but don’t do deadlifts every workout. They are particularly hard on your lower back and that takes a long time to recover.

If you are going to do Rippetoe, do it as written. Otherwise you are doing something else and you will not get the results as advertised. IMO you will overtrain your lower back and slow down your progress.[/quote]

It was a question that i was entertaining. I’m pretty much convinced that it’s best to do as written.
My concern was in the question “Does deadlifting sumo or conventional carry over to the other one”?

Like lets say ive deadlifted sumo all my life, and i can pull 600 pounds. Then one day i switch over to conventional, should i expect to start at square 1-2 for that lift, or will i be more or less in the same ball park? I understand the muscles are used are the same, but the extent of their useage is different.
I just like to get all my facts straight. :stuck_out_tongue:
Thanks for the replies.

#11

A lot of people try to make their PT more of an exact science than it needs to be. It’s your Training schedual, train how you want and see what you like more. Go from there . Tell me how it goes too big man.

#12

my weight goes up every workout almost on both squats and deads

they work great I have not had to drop one or the other
at first it was tough and drained me but the body has a wonderful way of adapting and I get great results strength wise.

I still do both the same day when ever I can my workouts now are not the same every day they are whatever I feel at the time but I try and do the same things just more of them or add more weight and never backwords.

#13

[quote]blazindave wrote:
hockechamp14 wrote:
My goals are split up between kyokushin (karate) and triathlon. However in terms of training i put more emphasis on triathlon.
I figured sumo would be more specific because in biking (mainly ass and quads)and running (mainly calves and hamstrings) leg power is the “most” important. Sumo (as ive read in now over 20 articles :P)puts more emphasis on leg power/strength and i would gain greatly from it. I’m sure it would help greatly for sprints on bike or run. The back would only really help you stabilise unless you’re going against strong wind or on a steep hill. This holds more true for biking than running (imo).
[/quote]

I didnt read the rest, but doing sumoDL to train legs as well as squats is kind of redundant. Just do the program as is, Rippetoe knows a thing or two, and when the time comes to up your Sumo, then you can focus on that. Just do the program as is, and you will be fine.

#14

[quote]Scrotus wrote:

I didnt read the rest, but doing sumoDL to train legs as well as squats is kind of redundant. Just do the program as is, Rippetoe knows a thing or two, and when the time comes to up your Sumo, then you can focus on that. Just do the program as is, and you will be fine.[/quote]

I’m not doing it specifically to train legs, but if a variation of the deadlift is more leg focused, then it would be best to use that one.
In the program all it says is “deadlift”, i didnt read conventional or sumo anywhere.

I think ill just keep the program as is then but make the deadlift sumo.

Thanks everyone :slight_smile:

#15

If I remember correctly in the book it says that you should pull conventional unless you are a powerlifter. But it’s been a while since I read the book.

#16

You’re right wiiwii. Sumo deadlifts are considered accessory lifts like RDLs and platform lifts. They are encouraged for intermediate and advanced lifters but the conventional deadlift is the basic exercise for the program.

The main thing is do do each rep with good form, deloading between reps and not bouncing the bar.

#17

i was doing these in the same work out and i was told if i squat and then i’m able to do deads that means that i didn’t squat hard enough (add more weight)

#18

[quote]big1day wrote:
i was doing these in the same work out and i was told if i squat and then i’m able to do deads that means that i didn’t squat hard enough (add more weight)[/quote]

To a point that’s true. However, your quads could be completely toast after a squat workout but you would still be able to do stiff-legged deadlifts (aka RDLs) since your hamstrings would not be completely fatigued. Likewise, after heavy deadlifts, you should still be able to do some front squats since your quads would still have something left.

Another factor is whether or not you are training for competition. In powerlifting, deadlifts are always the last event so you have to do them after you have squatted, so you might as well train that way.

#19

[quote]stuward wrote:
The main thing is do do each rep with good form, deloading between reps and not bouncing the bar. [/quote]

So is it that big of a deal if i make it sumo?

#20

[quote]blazindave wrote:
stuward wrote:
The main thing is do do each rep with good form, deloading between reps and not bouncing the bar.

So is it that big of a deal if i make it sumo?[/quote]

No.