[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
kayveeay wrote:
I disagree.
ATG looks cool in the gym, and it’s IMO a myth that you need to go that low to grow. Going below parallel can cause knee damage.
Nonsense. Where are you getting that information from? I was taught the same bullshit when I was in school for exercise science. The truth though is that it is a myth. Just like the “never let your knees go beyond your toes.”
Now, whether or not going ATG is necessary, I might agree with. You don’t have to go ATG to get results, but it’s certainly not more dangerous/damaging to the knees to do so.
I believe the phrase began when people weren’t going to 90 degrees (paralell) and coaches, PL’s started the phrase “ass to grass”…
90 degrees is not parallel. Parallel means that the top of your knee is parallel with the crease in your hip, that’s well beyond 90 degrees. And the truth is that the difference between an ATG squat and a true parallel squat isn’t very much ROM.
going beyond parallel isn’t advisable IMO…
make sure you’re going TO parallel.
Once again, why isn’t it advisable. Post some references.[/quote]
See, I’ve read that maximum muscle recruitment in the quads occurs at full knee flexion. So why bother short-changing yourself with parallel when you could get the full effect from A2G. Or maybe we should call it Hamstrings 2 Calves to better describe what the ROM actually looks like.
ATG looks cool in the gym, and it’s IMO a myth that you need to go that low to grow. Going below parallel can cause knee damage.
I believe the phrase began when people weren’t going to 90 degrees (paralell) and coaches, PL’s started the phrase “ass to grass”…
going beyond parallel isn’t advisable IMO…
make sure you’re going TO parallel. [/quote]
Oh dear, poor guy has not been enlightened yet !
At 90 degrees, your knee is in its most UNSTABLE position… now why oh fucking why would you try to reverse the weight in that position ???
And if you want your quads to hurt, when you get a2g stay there for the count of 2 and come back up.
Gets rid of the elasticity, forcing more work from your body.
Let me know how it goes
[quote]ab_power wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
kayveeay wrote:
I disagree.
ATG looks cool in the gym, and it’s IMO a myth that you need to go that low to grow. Going below parallel can cause knee damage.
Nonsense. Where are you getting that information from? I was taught the same bullshit when I was in school for exercise science. The truth though is that it is a myth. Just like the “never let your knees go beyond your toes.”
Now, whether or not going ATG is necessary, I might agree with. You don’t have to go ATG to get results, but it’s certainly not more dangerous/damaging to the knees to do so.
I believe the phrase began when people weren’t going to 90 degrees (paralell) and coaches, PL’s started the phrase “ass to grass”…
90 degrees is not parallel. Parallel means that the top of your knee is parallel with the crease in your hip, that’s well beyond 90 degrees. And the truth is that the difference between an ATG squat and a true parallel squat isn’t very much ROM.
going beyond parallel isn’t advisable IMO…
make sure you’re going TO parallel.
Once again, why isn’t it advisable. Post some references.
See, I’ve read that maximum muscle recruitment in the quads occurs at full knee flexion. So why bother short-changing yourself with parallel when you could get the full effect from A2G. Or maybe we should call it Hamstrings 2 Calves to better describe what the ROM actually looks like. [/quote]
Once you go past parrallel, i think its mostly hams and glutes do the majority of the work, but its meant to be a COMPOUND movement so who cares what the percentages are lift more weight ^^
I NEVER got any results from squatting thighs parallel to floor over YEARS, literatelly years!
As soon as i started going ATG… GROWTH!
True Story.
OP, i go ATG.
I see guys bigger than me, simply down to more drugs or a larger frame, who think that means something - they come in and do 1-2 sets of back squats not even to parallel, (3 plates a side no warmup) and then hold their lower back and move to the leg ext.
I laugh out loud at these clowns. In full view. It is better o not even pretend to do them and do the leg press better than do that.
I take solice in the fact that when posing, the balance in my body due to decent quality, regualar squatting would blow these clowns out of the water - bigger or not.
(after 15mins they moved back to the squat rack and took the bar over to the flat banch!!)
My main goal is size, which is the point with OVT, right? My legs STILL hurt from Saturday’s workout. If soreness is a measure of a good workout (WHICH I KNOW IS ANOTHER DEBATE WHICH I DONT WANT TO GET INTO) then it seems logical to continue A2G for now and see how it goes.
Where do you guys go to lift on grass? They don’t have grass in any of the gyms I’ve lifted at. I guess I’m just not hardcore enough.
Also, how low do they generally mow the grass at your gyms? Do you try to lift the day after they mow or do you wait until the end of the week when the grass is a little higher?
In any case, I generally like to use a full range of motion, i.e. as low as I can go without breaking form. However, I will also vary the height on occasion so that I can use more weight and get used to the feel of heavier weights.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
Not only is the 90 degree angle the hardest on your knees, you also lose the stretch reflex from the posterior chain, which is really what you are going for in any compound leg exercise.
[/quote]
Excellent point. Going ATG allows you to use the ligament stretch reflex that helps you blast out of the low position and use heavier loads. However, IMO, using the stretch reflex to assist with the load does not have a positive training effect on the muscles fibers. You want the muscle doing the work, not the neurological reflex if you are a BB.
So again, if you are bodybuilding, ATG IMO, is not the best way to target the quads from a mechanical and neurological perspective.
[quote]passionhawaii wrote:
your knee joints are most vulnerable at a 90 degree angle so doing your turn around at parallel leaves you that much more open to injury…
[/quote]
Not really. Parallel is subject to the angle you legs makes with your knees right?
So as most people squat, their knees might go slightly forward, changing the angle at which 90 degrees is. So 90 degree’s will look slightly above when your thigh is parallel to the ground.
In other words, if you were to squat with your lower part of your leg perpendicular to the ground, then when your thigh is parallel to the ground it would be 90 degrees. But no one I’ve seen squats like that. Everyone’s knee’s go slightly forward.
I think everything from parallel to ATG is fine(as long as your knees are in good shape).
I started doin ATG couple of years ago and im just now at 270x20, but my quad development is a lot better than goin to parallel.
But it really depends on your height. i have short legs, i’m 5’8", so going ATG is what gets me to grow. taller people dont need to go below parallel because then it involves hamstrings a lot more, and taller people have to lean forward, which involves the lower back too.
[quote]mikren wrote:
Where do you guys go to lift on grass? They don’t have grass in any of the gyms I’ve lifted at. I guess I’m just not hardcore enough.
Also, how low do they generally mow the grass at your gyms? Do you try to lift the day after they mow or do you wait until the end of the week when the grass is a little higher?
[/quote]
There is no substitute for A2G squatting. Especially for bodybuilding purposes as it will help you build some nice big teardrops.
The only issue is that many trainees lack flexibility to go A2G with good form. In that case, a lot of people will have to work on mobility and flexibility to reap the massive benefits of A2G.
PS Asian squatting daily WORKS to help flexibility. Read the article on this site.
Do what works for your purposes. Partial squats are great for overloading quads, and many BBers use them for just that reason. A2G squats get my glutes involved more than I’d like if I were training for purely aesthetic purposes. That said, I do think that A2G > Parallel for the overwhelming majority of people.
I prefer A2G front squats. I think parallel and back squats also have a purpose, and are a nice variation to do every now and then.
The harder question for me is, if I see someone who really has no clue about how to do a squat (parallel or full), do I tell them the error of their ways?
I’ve seen guys have 315 for pathetic quarter squats, but then dead lift only 135.
I am so tempted to grab a 16 inch box and tell the guy, “your butt should at least touch this when you squat.”
Or you could do quarter squats like all the massive guys (13 inch guns, 125 lb bench presses, and sexy abz) in your gym do so you can pack on mass to the n-th degree ^^
[quote]tw0scoops2 wrote:
passionhawaii wrote:
your knee joints are most vulnerable at a 90 degree angle so doing your turn around at parallel leaves you that much more open to injury…
Not really. Parallel is subject to the angle you legs makes with your knees right?
So as most people squat, their knees might go slightly forward, changing the angle at which 90 degrees is. So 90 degree’s will look slightly above when your thigh is parallel to the ground.
In other words, if you were to squat with your lower part of your leg perpendicular to the ground, then when your thigh is parallel to the ground it would be 90 degrees. But no one I’ve seen squats like that. Everyone’s knee’s go slightly forward.
[/quote]
i understand your point, there is an article or something on here about “parallel” actually being 110* or something like that? but anyways, the point is, that your knees are most vulnerable around the 90* angle…but do what you want…
[quote]
I think everything from parallel to ATG is fine(as long as your knees are in good shape).[/quote]
aren’t we trying to KEEP our knees in good shape? thats one reason why were talking about whether we should do atg or parallel…so we dont screw up our knees in the first place.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Shadowzz4 wrote:
Not only is the 90 degree angle the hardest on your knees, you also lose the stretch reflex from the posterior chain, which is really what you are going for in any compound leg exercise.
Excellent point. Going ATG allows you to use the ligament stretch reflex that helps you blast out of the low position and use heavier loads. However, IMO, using the stretch reflex to assist with the load does not have a positive training effect on the muscles fibers. You want the muscle doing the work, not the neurological reflex if you are a BB.
So again, if you are bodybuilding, ATG IMO, is not the best way to target the quads from a mechanical and neurological perspective. [/quote]
mechanical and neurological perspective… can you elaborate on that?
[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Shadowzz4 wrote:
Not only is the 90 degree angle the hardest on your knees, you also lose the stretch reflex from the posterior chain, which is really what you are going for in any compound leg exercise.
Excellent point. Going ATG allows you to use the ligament stretch reflex that helps you blast out of the low position and use heavier loads. However, IMO, using the stretch reflex to assist with the load does not have a positive training effect on the muscles fibers. You want the muscle doing the work, not the neurological reflex if you are a BB.
So again, if you are bodybuilding, ATG IMO, is not the best way to target the quads from a mechanical and neurological perspective.
mechanical and neurological perspective… can you elaborate on that? [/quote]
Mechanical: meaning that once you go past parallel the work shifts to the hip and glutes and off the quads.
Neurological: meaning that, depending on your speed, once you go past parallel the tendon stretch reflex kicks in (like plyometrics) and gives you an neurological-based increase in strength. This is good for power lifting, but not good for BB because it is the reflex that is doing the work not the muscle fiber per say. So not much hypertrophy comes from using the tendon stretch reflex.
Edit: this is for back squats only. Front squats work well ATG.
For front squat and hack squats I like very deep atg for maximum quad activation but there is definitely room for wide stance squats, box squats, and other more limited range of motion squat variations.
Mixing the two styles works great but if you are set on only one type of range of motion for whatever reason I will agree with what others have said that atg has worked better for me than when I use to use only parallel squats.
