Squat Sucks on 5-3-1 / 3-5-1

I like this idea. I have a EFS YOKE bar, that Fother Mucker has done great things for my dead lift. I love that bar but but hate at the same time as it kicks my ass every time it goes on my back. Throw in some bands and it is BRUTAL.

The speed bench worked well for me in the beginning to learn how to fire all at once. Now I just do it on deload weeks to stay ‘fast’. Something I’ve found to be even more effective for me now is doing an RE day of chaos benching or bamboo presses. Basically an empty bar with weight hung off of bands and do sets of 8. I know it’s meant to be a “pre hab” movement but shit guys it works the shit out of every muscle…maybe like a giant shake weight lol… 205 feels like 315. try it some times and see what I’m talking about. Just use mini bands so the weights bounce all over the place. Sure you look like a Kook and people will give you shit for it but if you can get them to try it they’ll shut up quick!
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I guess I forgot to mention that 90% of the time I do speed work, I do it with band tension. After some speed sets, I work up to heavier weights with the band tension on. I’ve read that that this is what Westside does now more often than not, and the only exception is if they’re too burned out that day to work up heavier after the speed sets. That’s why I said you should put DE bench on 5/3/1 military press day and DE squat on 5/3/1 deadlift day, because adding the band tension will really work the lockout/upper half of the lift if you have band tension or chains on and work up after the DE sets.

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]brauny96 wrote:
I had a similar problem too, on the bench. It went down significantly because I didnt have heavy enough weight in my hands. My squat went up, and deadlift stayed the dame.

I think it comes down to how you tweak it according to your needs, and with a program like 5/3/1, you need to do alot of it. They call it simple, and yes it is for beginners, but when you have a couple years experience under the bar, you get to the point where, it becomes difficult to program right. You have to make X amount of modifications to fit your needs.

This is where I like a Block Periodization setup, or a Conjugate Periodization setup more. You know your weak points and you train the shit out of them.[/quote]

Thanks Brauny… I’ve been curious about the block periodization…Like Frey does. Can I google that?
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I think theres an e-book on efs, that would help, or just send frey a question. I think it can be set up differently that what he does, but not sure. I don’t personally use it but I would think it would work, especially for a guy like you.

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:

I like this idea. I have a EFS YOKE bar, that Fother Mucker has done great things for my dead lift. I love that bar but but hate at the same time as it kicks my ass every time it goes on my back. Throw in some bands and it is BRUTAL.

The speed bench worked well for me in the beginning to learn how to fire all at once. Now I just do it on deload weeks to stay ‘fast’. Something I’ve found to be even more effective for me now is doing an RE day of chaos benching or bamboo presses. Basically an empty bar with weight hung off of bands and do sets of 8. I know it’s meant to be a “pre hab” movement but shit guys it works the shit out of every muscle…maybe like a giant shake weight lol… 205 feels like 315. try it some times and see what I’m talking about. Just use mini bands so the weights bounce all over the place. Sure you look like a Kook and people will give you shit for it but if you can get them to try it they’ll shut up quick!
[/quote]

I guess I forgot to mention that 90% of the time I do speed work, I do it with band tension. After some speed sets, I work up to heavier weights with the band tension on. I’ve read that that this is what Westside does now more often than not, and the only exception is if they’re too burned out that day to work up heavier after the speed sets. That’s why I said you should put DE bench on 5/3/1 military press day and DE squat on 5/3/1 deadlift day, because adding the band tension will really work the lockout/upper half of the lift if you have band tension or chains on and work up after the DE sets.[/quote]

Sooooooo, if your already doing one half of conjugate periodization, why don’t you do the full thing?

Also, on the whole “bands and chains only hit lockout” is shit. Dave Tate even said westide methods work well for a raw lifter. Westside is not just bands and chains.

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:

I like this idea. I have a EFS YOKE bar, that Fother Mucker has done great things for my dead lift. I love that bar but but hate at the same time as it kicks my ass every time it goes on my back. Throw in some bands and it is BRUTAL.

The speed bench worked well for me in the beginning to learn how to fire all at once. Now I just do it on deload weeks to stay ‘fast’. Something I’ve found to be even more effective for me now is doing an RE day of chaos benching or bamboo presses. Basically an empty bar with weight hung off of bands and do sets of 8. I know it’s meant to be a “pre hab” movement but shit guys it works the shit out of every muscle…maybe like a giant shake weight lol… 205 feels like 315. try it some times and see what I’m talking about. Just use mini bands so the weights bounce all over the place. Sure you look like a Kook and people will give you shit for it but if you can get them to try it they’ll shut up quick!
[/quote]

I guess I forgot to mention that 90% of the time I do speed work, I do it with band tension. After some speed sets, I work up to heavier weights with the band tension on. I’ve read that that this is what Westside does now more often than not, and the only exception is if they’re too burned out that day to work up heavier after the speed sets. That’s why I said you should put DE bench on 5/3/1 military press day and DE squat on 5/3/1 deadlift day, because adding the band tension will really work the lockout/upper half of the lift if you have band tension or chains on and work up after the DE sets.[/quote]

Oh, ok I got you. I guess I need to read more of Lou’s articles. I haven’t read any in a while for some reason… Is it me or is “everyone” on an “anti west-side” kick lately? It’s like all the big names who came up with that are now kind of biting the hand that fed them. Maybe it’s just that thy need to break off and make a name for themselves or maybe it’s just me?? IDK. Thanks again Urban

[quote]brauny96 wrote:
Sooooooo, if your already doing one half of conjugate periodization, why don’t you do the full thing?

Also, on the whole “bands and chains only hit lockout” is shit. Dave Tate even said westide methods work well for a raw lifter. Westside is not just bands and chains.
[/quote]

I enjoy weekly and monthly progress on the actual competition lifts themselves. I can hit floor press as my ME bench and then right after go for a rep PR on the standard bench. It’s still conjugate periodaztion. The weights and reps for the competition lifts change weekly because they’re 5/3/1, so how’s that not conjugate periodization? It works for me, and works better than when I didn’t do it that way and was using the Westside template. It also works better for me then when I was just doing the normal 5/3/1. So, if it works better for me than the standard Westside template does and the standard 5/3/1 template does, what’s the problem exactly?

I don’t know if you’re second comment is aimed at me, but I never said anything like that. I agree that Westside works well for the raw lifter, you just have to be aware of what assistance exercises you need and where your weak points are in comparison to the weak points of a geared lifter.

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
Is it me or is “everyone” on an “anti west-side” kick lately? It’s like all the big names who came up with that are now kind of biting the hand that fed them. Maybe it’s just that thy need to break off and make a name for themselves or maybe it’s just me?? IDK. Thanks again Urban[/quote]

I think Wendler just started it and everyone else is blindly following along. It’s ridiculous because Wendler did all of his best lifting at Westside, and his raw squat and bench were better while he was there. The only thing that’s even improved since he left Westside is his deadlift, with years of extra training. So, I’d really like to know his logic when he talks shit on all of the principles and ideals that made Westside into what it is today. He’s just not held accountable for anything he says anymore and no one will tell him when he’s acting like a jackass, and if they do then dozens of 5/3/1 followers come out and call them a “hater” or something. Oh well.

One thing to keep in mind was 5/3/1 is a program for improving “strength” and not necessarily your 1RM in the big 3 lifts, even though the program uses those. If it helps improve your 5RM then it did its job, I think westside was more about getting ready for PL competitions. Since this is a powerlifting forum all talk of 5/3/1 is centered around powerlifting and improving 1RM. I’ve even seen it mentioned in some crossfit forums since strength is one of the things they try to improve on.

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:

His raw squat and bench were better while he was training at Westside [/quote]

He has said bench is down from when he was competing, and squat is debatable (since he never squatted raw then, according to him)…but the man also weighs 50 pounds less now than then…of course its going to be down!

[quote]
only his deadlift has improved and that’s with a ton of training since he left. [/quote]

Yup, which has improved from using…5-3-1…

Using 5/3/1 for how long now? If you’re in the gym consistently for that fucking long, you think only improving 1 lift out of the big 3 is good?

He’s half a million pounds lighter, he could lift 90% on every lift and still be a better lifter than he was, let alone surpass those lifts.

What a joke, people will say anything to defend Wendler. It’s not as if he lost 50 lbs of muscle, he lost fat. Losing a bunch’ve fat, not regularly training raw before and having years to lift since then and his raw lifts are still worse overall? Only when it comes to Wendler would people actually try to say that’s a good thing.

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
What a joke, people will say anything to defend Wendler. It’s not as if he lost 50 lbs of muscle, he lost fat. Losing a bunch’ve fat, not regularly training raw before and having years to lift since then and his raw lifts are still worse overall? Only when it comes to Wendler would people actually try to say that’s a good thing. [/quote]

Who is the joke here? I have no horse in the race so I don’t give a fuck who’s training methods you use (you do train right?), but it pisses me off when some nobody hides behind a keyboard and bashes somebody I have a great amount of respect without even checking their facts.

I love how you are now interested in discussing the weight loss, but were conveniently ignoring it (or not thinking about it? not sure how much credit i’m willing to give you here)…its always a field goal contest with you morons…whenever somebody boots it thru, you just move the goal posts on back and call for a “RE-KICK”…

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:

I think Louie Simmons just started it and everyone else is blindly following along.[/quote]

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
What a joke, people will say anything to defend Louie Simmons.[/quote]

I find much irony in your posts.

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
What a joke, people will say anything to defend Wendler. It’s not as if he lost 50 lbs of muscle, he lost fat. Losing a bunch’ve fat, not regularly training raw before and having years to lift since then and his raw lifts are still worse overall? Only when it comes to Wendler would people actually try to say that’s a good thing. [/quote]

I don’t really understand your reasoning (or lack thereof). 50 pounds is 50 pounds. Whether it was fat or muscle he lost doesn’t matter. I don’t think anyone would argue that you’re going to be stronger with that extra weight. Plain and simple. Honestly I can understand how Wendler might rub you the wrong way, he’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

My question is what that has to do with hundreds, maybe thousands of lifters increasing their totals by following 5/3/1 to a T. The program is proven to work and Wendler’s advice and coaching has obviously helped a lot of people regardless.

I’ve seen your posts on these boards and you seem to “know” a lot about powerlifting. So what are your numbers?

Damn y’all jacked my thread!! lol…

This is supposed to be about ME sucking at lifts not Wendler…lol

Please guys, let’s be Gentlemen and not argue about what SOMEONE ELSE lifts or doesn’t lift. Let’s also not call someone out about their totals. UNLESS YOUR NAME is in the PL USA top 100 for a weight class. We take enough shit from non lifters…lets not kill ourselves PLEASE.

An update: Today was my dead lift day. I decided to do some dynamic squats since I haven’t done then in over 6 months. According to my training log the last time I did then I was using 315 bar weight and STRONG bands wearing my briefs, no belt. Well just now I could ‘only’ do 225 and average bands. There you have it. My squat officially sucks! I’m going back on West-side on Monday… I like breaking PR’s I like the shit tons of variations etc. I’ll save 5.3.1. for some other time when I no longer care about 1rm’s.

Thanks again for all the advice fellas…

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
An update: Today was my dead lift day. I decided to do some dynamic squats since I haven’t done then in over 6 months. According to my training log the last time I did then I was using 315 bar weight and STRONG bands wearing my briefs, no belt. Well just now I could ‘only’ do 225 and average bands. There you have it. My squat officially sucks! I’m going back on West-side on Monday… I like breaking PR’s I like the shit tons of variations etc. I’ll save 5.3.1. for some other time when I no longer care about 1rm’s.

Thanks again for all the advice fellas… [/quote]

How many cycles did you end up doing of 5/3/1? Also any good improvement on DL, that lift seems to do good on this program.

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
Damn y’all jacked my thread!! lol…

This is supposed to be about ME sucking at lifts not Wendler…lol

Please guys, let’s be Gentlemen and not argue about what SOMEONE ELSE lifts or doesn’t lift. Let’s also not call someone out about their totals. UNLESS YOUR NAME is in the PL USA top 100 for a weight class. We take enough shit from non lifters…lets not kill ourselves PLEASE.

[/quote]

Good call. I’m not responding to any of the retards drinking the 5/3/1 kool-aid anymore. I never get a rational response anyway and the thread just gets derailed.

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
An update: Today was my dead lift day. I decided to do some dynamic squats since I haven’t done then in over 6 months. According to my training log the last time I did then I was using 315 bar weight and STRONG bands wearing my briefs, no belt. Well just now I could ‘only’ do 225 and average bands. There you have it. My squat officially sucks! I’m going back on West-side on Monday… I like breaking PR’s I like the shit tons of variations etc. I’ll save 5.3.1. for some other time when I no longer care about 1rm’s.

Thanks again for all the advice fellas… [/quote]

That’s a bummer about the drop in strength on your squat but that’s good that you’re acknowledging what works for you and are going to go back to it. Most that do 5/3/1 would just over-analyze your 5/3/1 setup and say you’re doing some trivial aspect of the program wrong, but sometimes certain rep schemes/programs just work better for some than others.

I swear the four 5/3/1 main lifts used as a second exercises of the day after the ME/DE main lift really does work well though (for me at least) and would be worth a try. It perfectly taps into all the benefits of Westside and its variation, weak point training, etc. and combines it with weekly reliable “progress report” type lifts when you do the 5/3/1 lifts, but since you push those for AMRAP, you build on them as well.

Anyway, keep us updated on how you progress.

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I don’t even think Jim himself got his top lifts from doing this program, I am guessing more of a Westside style was used. [/quote]

You’re wrong…Jim used 5-3-1 leading up to his raw meet last July and totaled elite. Seemed to work well for him.

When he was competing geared, he wasn’t using 5-3-1 (since it didn’t exist then). But I am 95% sure his current training is based almost exclusively on 5-3-1. [/quote]

His raw squat and bench were better while he was training at Westside, only his deadlift has improved and that’s with a ton of training since he left. [/quote]

He has lost a lot of bodyweight too (and, no doubt, modified his ahem supplement regime)

Thread Rejack,

To the OP. I think something that is never discussed with 5-3-1 is the program that you did previously to it. I have done a lot of sheiko stuff with tonnes of volume and it has worked well for me. When I switched to 531 I had an immediate surge in strength (likely due to the reduced volume) but eventually my bench stalled, but my squat and deadlift increased slowly.

The same could be true in your case for a westside approach with a lot of band work. I suspect that 531 will likely lead to eventual gains as you transition to the 531 loading protocal, but you may not want to wait that long.