Some time ago I decided to do 5-3-1 as I have read awesome stuff about it. I get the whole “it’s not a quick program” and I also get the whole a few steps back, 1 step forward stuff…I’m not trying to putt 200# on my total in 8 weeks ok. I’m not worried about my ‘ego’ either but my “steps back vs. Steps forward” seem semi unacceptable to me at this time.
My bench- (off the chest strength)has improved but my lock out feels weaker, My dead has improved pretty well but my squat freaking sucks. It used to be my best and favorite move but f@wk I’m getting owned with weights I used to be able to rep fairly easy. My squat feels slow as shit since not doing band work. That’s why I’m bummed about it.
I’ve been doing exactly as the book describes to do 5-3-1. NO “modifications”… I’ve been working off of 90% of my 1rms and I even lowered the figure to be “safe” and give myself a little room to work with. The weight I’m repping calculates to what my real 1rm WAS when I started BUT when I load the bar with anything over 500# it feels like a fucking SHIT ton of weight is on my back whereas it used to feel light. I don’t get it?? I guess I don’t do well on squats repping 85% of my 1rm ( 95%- of 90% is 85%)
Any body else have a “lagging” lift(s) using 5-3-1??
Maybe I need to get a little more creative on the accessory movements, like put heavy board presses back in or do some bench / squats against chains or bands? What do you guys do? Thanks for the tips in advance guys!
I have done the program as written but now starting to modify it more. So far I have not seen too many people with big numbers do this program and of those have not seen any examples of big progress with it. I don’t even think Jim himself got his top lifts from doing this program, I am guessing more of a Westside style was used. Your lifts are bigger than mine so I won’t really try to give any advise but at least get this thread going more. What kind of rep ranges are doing recently for the last sets? I think there can be a big difference for 1RM ability if your getting like 5 on the 1+ week vs 1 or 2 on the 1+ week.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Your lifts are bigger than mine so I won’t really try to give any advise but at least get this thread going more. [/quote]
Maybe… but I’m sure you bust ass in the gym so I’m sure you can offer some relevant advice right?..
uh lets see… on my “5” week I usually get 9, my “3” week I get 7, and the “1” week I get 5. In 5.3.1 the 5 week(85%) =72% 1rm, the 3 week(90%) =76.5% and the 1 week(95)= 85% 1rm. In all my years lifting I have been fairly consistent with my percentages and reps.
[quote]Barge wrote:
I can’t remember where it was written, but Jim at one time voiced this modification to maintain 1RM strength.
Do 3/5/1. On the 3 week and the 5 week finish with heavy singles after your rep set. On the 5 week you just do your prescribed 5 reps.
I’ve done this for my 2nd 5/3/1 cycle and I like it better because I get to do some real weight and not 12+ reps.[/quote]
I actually read that the other day and started doing the “5.3.1 reloaded” this past Monday… I figured I did something wrong so I re-read the article just now…well I fucked up! On my last set I was used to doing 3+ so I did 485 x 7 then tried to do 535 -(90% of my real 1rm wearing briefs) and it was a freaking grinder. I guess I jumped the gun on my post! I should have only done the 3 reps! Stupid me…
Anyways, thanks for the help guys! I don’t keep a training log on this site you could scrutinize for stupid shit but I got one at Irontrybe…if your bored and want to check it out. I go by SD over there too.
I had a similar problem too, on the bench. It went down significantly because I didnt have heavy enough weight in my hands. My squat went up, and deadlift stayed the dame.
I think it comes down to how you tweak it according to your needs, and with a program like 5/3/1, you need to do alot of it. They call it simple, and yes it is for beginners, but when you have a couple years experience under the bar, you get to the point where, it becomes difficult to program right. You have to make X amount of modifications to fit your needs.
This is where I like a Block Periodization setup, or a Conjugate Periodization setup more. You know your weak points and you train the shit out of them.
[quote]brauny96 wrote:
I had a similar problem too, on the bench. It went down significantly because I didnt have heavy enough weight in my hands. My squat went up, and deadlift stayed the dame.
I think it comes down to how you tweak it according to your needs, and with a program like 5/3/1, you need to do alot of it. They call it simple, and yes it is for beginners, but when you have a couple years experience under the bar, you get to the point where, it becomes difficult to program right. You have to make X amount of modifications to fit your needs.
This is where I like a Block Periodization setup, or a Conjugate Periodization setup more. You know your weak points and you train the shit out of them.[/quote]
Thanks Brauny… I’ve been curious about the block periodization…Like Frey does. Can I google that?
I would do the 3/5/1 version with heavier singles as detailed earlier in the thread. I think when doing the original 5/3/1 it builds strength even though the reps are higher, you just may not be able to demonstrate that strength right away. Sometimes I think it may take a cycle of adding the heavier (but not maximal) singles to be able to demonstrate that new strength. It’s similar to block periodization in that the work you do early in the cycle with lighter weights does help build strength, but it takes a little time doing some heavier work to “realize” that strength.
I’ve had good luck with 5/3/1 as written and I’m a more advanced lifter (500+ raw squat, 350+ raw bench and a 575+ raw pull, all under meet conditions at 242). I look at the first 2-3 cycles as more prep/off season work than anything else. They give you a break from the heavier weights, while still building the muscles you’ll need later.
Once you get into cycles 3-6 and on, you’re realizing the strength you built earlier. This is why it strikes me as important for someone who competes to push the cycles as long as possible, i.e. don’t freak out and reset when you only get the prescribed reps. To fully realize your one-rep ma strength, you need to strain with heavier weights and you miss that part of the program if you reset too early as some on here seem to advocate.
I think to a certain extent you can preserve your ability to strain with heavy weights by working some singles in every now and again that are in the 90% range (of your true max). I don’t think you need to run the 3/5/1 modification to do that – just add some singles on your 5/3/1 day or your triple day.
Jim’s whole “don’t use bands and chains” and “speed work is good for people who don’t want to be strong” thing is fucking stupid. If you want to use bands and chains and need something to work your lockout/top half of your lifts, then use them. If I were you, I’d do some speed squats with band tension on the 5/3/1 deadlift day before the deadlifts, and do speed benching on the 5/3/1 military press day before the military press.
I went through a few cycles with 5/3/1, and then did one cycle where I basically combined Westside and 5/3/1. It went ME bench then 5/3/1 bench, ME squat then 5/3/1 squat, DE bench then 5/3/1 military press, DE squat then 5/3/1 deadlift. If your 5/3/1 max is truly at 90% like it’s supposed to be, this set-up is easy to handle and I honestly think it’s an improvement on 5/3/1. On the Westside template, a lot of times I see them work up to a 5 rep max in a similar lift for their second exercise of the day after whatever ME or DE exercise they first, and doing 5/3/1 instead for that first assistance lift works perfectly.
Anyway, just a suggestion. If you don’t like that idea, I’d definetely try out the 3/5/1 with heavy singles version.
I’m running into a similar problem on bench w/ 531. I had some great progress the first two cycles, but since then my bench has actually gotten worse. (Currently on the 5th cycle) I do mix in a lot of singles. Some have told me that it’s probably too many, but I can’t make myself believe that doing less is the answer.
The rest of my lifts are coming along quite well though.
I won’t know for a while if its working but I recently switched to alternating squat and DL weeks, running that for 6 total then a deload on 7th. With this I do Squat assistance lifts on DL day and vise versa. This also frees up a lower body day for the week you can do whatever you want with, more volume, speed, or nothing at all depending on your needs.
For bench I am also doing kind of what UrbanSavage said, start by doing a heavier ME bench variation, shorter ROM is great. After this do your bench 5/3/1 style but set your % even lower even so you can get like 10+ reps on week 3. One reason I’ve stuck with 5/3/1 for so long is the day devoted to overhead press which I suck at but can hopefully change by having its own day. I don’t want to divert attention from that lift so I sometimes do DE bench AFTER overhead press, but not all the time.
This blog has some stuff on 5/3/1, I think he just does 2 days a week for 6 total and follows the original program more than I do. http://functional-strength.blogspot.com/
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I don’t even think Jim himself got his top lifts from doing this program, I am guessing more of a Westside style was used. [/quote]
You’re wrong…Jim used 5-3-1 leading up to his raw meet last July and totaled elite. Seemed to work well for him.
When he was competing geared, he wasn’t using 5-3-1 (since it didn’t exist then). But I am 95% sure his current training is based almost exclusively on 5-3-1.
As for 5-3-1 overall, I like the program for building raw, base strength. When I was a beginner on it, I even used it almost entirely as written leading up to my first PL Meet, working up to my openers for about 3 reps a few weeks out from the meet.
I don’t think I will get as much out of that anymore, and I think the 3-5-1 modification is better for meet prep for some people with a bit of time under the bar.
BUT I would still run 5-3-1 in the offseason just to build the strength base, then use the 3-5-1 modification a cycle or two out from the meet to start recruiting the CNS more and get used to heavier weights.
I’m competing in middle of March and I plan to use the 5-3-1 as written with triumverate template through the first of February, then switch to 3-5-1 for February’s cycle and work on some heavy singles, and go in hit my openers and some light work the first week of March, then a light deload the week before my meet.
Once you get into cycles 3-6 and on, you’re realizing the strength you built earlier. This is why it strikes me as important for someone who competes to push the cycles as long as possible, i.e. don’t freak out and reset when you only get the prescribed reps. To fully realize your one-rep ma strength, you need to strain with heavier weights and you miss that part of the program if you reset too early [/quote]
Makes sense, Thanks Burt… Yeah, I wanted to give the “Wendler system” a go, as written, because I didn’t want to be “that guy” and change a bunch of stuff only to not be doing 5.3.1 anymore. Did that makes sense? I can also get how Jim doesn’t probably give a shit about being in “competition shape” ,if you will, and just train to be generally awesome as he says. In my mind, based on what I’ve read, Jim seems to be sort of ‘soul searching’. It’s as if his earlier life was consumed by Power lifting and football so now he’s living life as you will. The 5.3.1 allows him to stay i great shape yet not be so slave to the training…I may be full of sh!t too…
[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
Jim’s whole “don’t use bands and chains” and “speed work is good for people who don’t want to be strong” thing is fucking stupid. If you want to use bands and chains and need something to work your lockout/top half of your lifts, then use them.[/quote]
I agree with you on this… I get the whole bands and chains are for the lock out portion of the bench and that raw dawgs should focus on the off the chest, the floor, the hole aspect of the lifts. ‘BUT’ If I can get 365 off my chest any day of the week how would adding 25-50# of chains make me weaker? I don’t neglect the bottom portions of the lifts and I have yet to read an explanation of how outrunning band tension or chain weight make one weaker. I’m not claiming to be “special” in any way but my training log proves that for me, The chains and bands work well.
I like this idea. I have a EFS YOKE bar, that Fother Mucker has done great things for my dead lift. I love that bar but but hate at the same time as it kicks my ass every time it goes on my back. Throw in some bands and it is BRUTAL.
The speed bench worked well for me in the beginning to learn how to fire all at once. Now I just do it on deload weeks to stay ‘fast’. Something I’ve found to be even more effective for me now is doing an RE day of chaos benching or bamboo presses. Basically an empty bar with weight hung off of bands and do sets of 8. I know it’s meant to be a “pre hab” movement but shit guys it works the shit out of every muscle…maybe like a giant shake weight lol… 205 feels like 315. try it some times and see what I’m talking about. Just use mini bands so the weights bounce all over the place. Sure you look like a Kook and people will give you shit for it but if you can get them to try it they’ll shut up quick!
I warmed up once doing raw 3 board presses. I think I worked up to 405 for 3 then jumped right in to benching off the chest. it was my “3+” week My spreadsheet said 320 for 3+ well It felt light as fuck compared to the 405 and I got that shit 11 times. Why the hell I didn’t make the connection that this might be a great thing is beyond me. I chalked it up to having a good day…stupid me. Gonna try that again next time and see what happens. Thanks for throwing that out there Urban…
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
reps on week 3. One reason I’ve stuck with 5/3/1 for so long is the day devoted to overhead press which I suck at but can hopefully change by having its own day.
[/quote]
Thanks Andy… I too suck at OH presses. I always seem to tweak my back like a dip shit. I’m waiting on a 2 ply, grid stitched, Kevlar paneled, rocket assist OH press shirt then I’ll be good to go…lol
Some good tips thrown out here folks! Thanks again, Mike
Once you get into cycles 3-6 and on, you’re realizing the strength you built earlier. This is why it strikes me as important for someone who competes to push the cycles as long as possible, i.e. don’t freak out and reset when you only get the prescribed reps. To fully realize your one-rep ma strength, you need to strain with heavier weights and you miss that part of the program if you reset too early [/quote]
Makes sense, Thanks Burt… Yeah, I wanted to give the “Wendler system” a go, as written, because I didn’t want to be “that guy” and change a bunch of stuff only to not be doing 5.3.1 anymore. Did that makes sense? I can also get how Jim doesn’t probably give a shit about being in “competition shape” ,if you will, and just train to be generally awesome as he says. In my mind, based on what I’ve read, Jim seems to be sort of ‘soul searching’. It’s as if his earlier life was consumed by Power lifting and football so now he’s living life as you will. The 5.3.1 allows him to stay i great shape yet not be so slave to the training…I may be full of sh!t too…
[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
Jim’s whole “don’t use bands and chains” and “speed work is good for people who don’t want to be strong” thing is fucking stupid. If you want to use bands and chains and need something to work your lockout/top half of your lifts, then use them.[/quote]
I agree with you on this… I get the whole bands and chains are for the lock out portion of the bench and that raw dawgs should focus on the off the chest, the floor, the hole aspect of the lifts. ‘BUT’ If I can get 365 off my chest any day of the week how would adding 25-50# of chains make me weaker? I don’t neglect the bottom portions of the lifts and I have yet to read an explanation of how outrunning band tension or chain weight make one weaker. I’m not claiming to be “special” in any way but my training log proves that for me, The chains and bands work well.
I like this idea. I have a EFS YOKE bar, that Fother Mucker has done great things for my dead lift. I love that bar but but hate at the same time as it kicks my ass every time it goes on my back. Throw in some bands and it is BRUTAL.
The speed bench worked well for me in the beginning to learn how to fire all at once. Now I just do it on deload weeks to stay ‘fast’. Something I’ve found to be even more effective for me now is doing an RE day of chaos benching or bamboo presses. Basically an empty bar with weight hung off of bands and do sets of 8. I know it’s meant to be a “pre hab” movement but shit guys it works the shit out of every muscle…maybe like a giant shake weight lol… 205 feels like 315. try it some times and see what I’m talking about. Just use mini bands so the weights bounce all over the place. Sure you look like a Kook and people will give you shit for it but if you can get them to try it they’ll shut up quick!
I warmed up once doing raw 3 board presses. I think I worked up to 405 for 3 then jumped right in to benching off the chest. it was my “3+” week My spreadsheet said 320 for 3+ well It felt light as fuck compared to the 405 and I got that shit 11 times. Why the hell I didn’t make the connection that this might be a great thing is beyond me. I chalked it up to having a good day…stupid me. Gonna try that again next time and see what happens. Thanks for throwing that out there Urban…
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
reps on week 3. One reason I’ve stuck with 5/3/1 for so long is the day devoted to overhead press which I suck at but can hopefully change by having its own day.
[/quote]
Thanks Andy… I too suck at OH presses. I always seem to tweak my back like a dip shit. I’m waiting on a 2 ply, grid stitched, Kevlar paneled, rocket assist OH press shirt then I’ll be good to go…lol
Some good tips thrown out here folks! Thanks again, Mike
Once you get into cycles 3-6 and on, you’re realizing the strength you built earlier. This is why it strikes me as important for someone who competes to push the cycles as long as possible, i.e. don’t freak out and reset when you only get the prescribed reps. To fully realize your one-rep ma strength, you need to strain with heavier weights and you miss that part of the program if you reset too early [/quote]
Makes sense, Thanks Burt… Yeah, I wanted to give the “Wendler system” a go, as written, because I didn’t want to be “that guy” and change a bunch of stuff only to not be doing 5.3.1 anymore. Did that makes sense? I can also get how Jim doesn’t probably give a shit about being in “competition shape” ,if you will, and just train to be generally awesome as he says. In my mind, based on what I’ve read, Jim seems to be sort of ‘soul searching’. It’s as if his earlier life was consumed by Power lifting and football so now he’s living life as you will. The 5.3.1 allows him to stay i great shape yet not be so slave to the training…I may be full of sh!t too…
[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
Jim’s whole “don’t use bands and chains” and “speed work is good for people who don’t want to be strong” thing is fucking stupid. If you want to use bands and chains and need something to work your lockout/top half of your lifts, then use them.[/quote]
I agree with you on this… I get the whole bands and chains are for the lock out portion of the bench and that raw dawgs should focus on the off the chest, the floor, the hole aspect of the lifts. ‘BUT’ If I can get 365 off my chest any day of the week how would adding 25-50# of chains make me weaker? I don’t neglect the bottom portions of the lifts and I have yet to read an explanation of how outrunning band tension or chain weight make one weaker. I’m not claiming to be “special” in any way but my training log proves that for me, The chains and bands work well.
I like this idea. I have a EFS YOKE bar, that Fother Mucker has done great things for my dead lift. I love that bar but but hate at the same time as it kicks my ass every time it goes on my back. Throw in some bands and it is BRUTAL.
The speed bench worked well for me in the beginning to learn how to fire all at once. Now I just do it on deload weeks to stay ‘fast’. Something I’ve found to be even more effective for me now is doing an RE day of chaos benching or bamboo presses. Basically an empty bar with weight hung off of bands and do sets of 8. I know it’s meant to be a “pre hab” movement but shit guys it works the shit out of every muscle…maybe like a giant shake weight lol… 205 feels like 315. try it some times and see what I’m talking about. Just use mini bands so the weights bounce all over the place. Sure you look like a Kook and people will give you shit for it but if you can get them to try it they’ll shut up quick!
I warmed up once doing raw 3 board presses. I think I worked up to 405 for 3 then jumped right in to benching off the chest. it was my “3+” week My spreadsheet said 320 for 3+ well It felt light as fuck compared to the 405 and I got that shit 11 times. Why the hell I didn’t make the connection that this might be a great thing is beyond me. I chalked it up to having a good day…stupid me. Gonna try that again next time and see what happens. Thanks for throwing that out there Urban…
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
reps on week 3. One reason I’ve stuck with 5/3/1 for so long is the day devoted to overhead press which I suck at but can hopefully change by having its own day.
[/quote]
Thanks Andy… I too suck at OH presses. I always seem to tweak my back like a dip shit. I’m waiting on a 2 ply, grid stitched, Kevlar paneled, rocket assist OH press shirt then I’ll be good to go…lol
Some good tips thrown out here folks! Thanks again, Mike
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I don’t even think Jim himself got his top lifts from doing this program, I am guessing more of a Westside style was used. [/quote]
You’re wrong…Jim used 5-3-1 leading up to his raw meet last July and totaled elite. Seemed to work well for him.
When he was competing geared, he wasn’t using 5-3-1 (since it didn’t exist then). But I am 95% sure his current training is based almost exclusively on 5-3-1. [/quote]
I meant the top geared lifts, 1000lb squat and 700 deadlift. Even geared I think having those kinds of numbers in your past attribute more to a raw elite total than whatever program your using to train for it.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I don’t even think Jim himself got his top lifts from doing this program, I am guessing more of a Westside style was used. [/quote]
You’re wrong…Jim used 5-3-1 leading up to his raw meet last July and totaled elite. Seemed to work well for him.
When he was competing geared, he wasn’t using 5-3-1 (since it didn’t exist then). But I am 95% sure his current training is based almost exclusively on 5-3-1. [/quote]
His raw squat and bench were better while he was training at Westside, only his deadlift has improved and that’s with a ton of training since he left.
but I got one at Irontrybe…if your bored and want to check it out. I go by SD over there too.