T Nation

Squat FSL Before Deadlift 5/3/1?


#1

Normally, I would squat first and then Deadlift. Deadlifts take a lot of out of me, especially when I am going for PR. Doing additional supplemental/accessory work certainly is not fun.

Is it written in stone that you should do Squat FSL 5x5 after Deadlifts, or before is also acceptable?


#2

PR set is ALWAYS first, before 5x5 FSL. The 531 PR set is the only important thing of your training day.

Why dont you do 531 squat and then 5x5 fsl squat? some days later: 531 dead and then 5x5 fsl dead?


#3

You can just drop the FSL from dead day. Many can go pretty long way without any supplemental work in lower body lifts.

OR you just man up and do the FSL after the amrap. It is supplemental work - if your TM is on place you should be able to do easy FSL work (3-5x5) after the PR.

PS. I would also recommend doing the same movement FSL after the main work.


#4

I agree with the others, too much volume on the Squats before the Deadlifts is probably not the best idea. Save yourself for the main work.
But, In the Beyond book, in the chapter called “2 Day / Week, New Template”, Jim lists “easier” Squat sets before the Deadlift 5/3/1 work.
It’s NOT (not, not, not) the FSL you were looking for but perhaps if you like to Squat before Deadlift then you may give those percents/reps a try.


#5

I thought FSL was something done after the 5/3/1 sets for the same lift, on their own its easy but doing it after a heavier AMRAP set makes them a little more difficult.


#6

The goal is to do every main lift twice a week. That would be light and heavy workouts. I think, FSL is more appropriate for Strength and Technique development than BBB.

I have seen several times on this forum people using alternate lifts with FSL, so I thought it wouldn’t really hurt. I do much better if I squat twice a week. I noticed that after removing BBB from my program and just doing the main lifts. In a few weeks my squat significantly dropped. All the other lifts were fine, though.

After adding Squat FSL 5x5 to my Deadlift day I was able to set a new PR and the weight didn’t feel as heavy anymore. My thinking is that medium volume at slightly higher intensity does the trick. BBB works as well, but my goal if not hypertrophy. I need more work on technique and ability to feel the lift (the muscles that are working).


#7

Everything you wrote tells me you did not read the book or didn’t understand.

Which template are you using?


#8

Why you need to squat 2x/week? You know Wendler has plenty of templates/programs where you can do that. I would strongly recommend following some of those programs.

BBB is great for strength by the way. It fits perfectly in the bigger picture.


#9

Actually, now when I did reread your comment I suggest that move to the A/B style split and use 5s PRO + 3-5x5 as your leaders.

You dont have to listen me (I am not authority in the subject), but that is my favorite when I like to get semi frequent/easy volume for my lifts. It really does not matter, but that at least is recommended by Wendler.


#10

Recently I came acros many threads that mention a setup similar to this one:

Deadlift 5/3/1 FSL
Squats 5 x 5 @ 80
Ab work

Etc. There are many more.

I have no idea where these people got an idea of doing the main lift followed by supplemental lift @80 TM 5x5, but I like it much more than BBB 5x10 @50-60. The main reason are simple. I am an intermediate lifter who needs to work on his technique. Squating 2x a week would be ideal for practice and recovery. I used to squat 3 times a week when I was doing Starting Strength. One time a week is not sufficent frequency.

These people must have got that idea ftom somewhere, and I saw no opposition from Jim to it. If anyone could explain me the difference between supplementary lift @80% TM 5x5 and FSL 5x5 I would appreciate it. For now, the inly difference that I see is that FSL will be increasing from 65-75%.

I would gladly do 80%, just not sure which template this came from.


#11

Found it! I didn’t read that part of the book, but it certainly is there.

Boring But Big, 5x5 Variation
5x5 @ 80%

I still don’t see big difference between what I was saying earlier and this variation of BBB that is in the book.


#12

So you decided to do heavier supplemental, even when it tires you after PR set?


#13

Yes, but I will cap the set at lower reps instrad of going for two short of failure. For example,on 5+ week I will cap PR set at 10 reps and then do BBB 5x5. This will be a little compromise.


#14

You should never go to failure with 5/3/1. I recommend you to reread Beyond.


#15

Yes, there is a good chance I am a bit confused. I am currently in tge process of rereading the books. Thanks for the input everyone!


#16

If you didn’t see opposition from Jim it is because you did not even read what you linked.

When you do a program, you commit 100% or you do something else. The books gave all the answers.


#18

Don’t be discouraged, It seems like that’s been going on for quite a long time. Not just specifically in this forum but others as well on this site. Take what you can and discard the rest.

If your truly interested in learning more about 5/3/1 the best place is to go to Jim’s website.
I hear it’s a great place from all the members here who talk about it.


#19

I don’t think the 5x5 @ 80% has been recommended much, as in yeah it probably works, but I think other methods are preferred over it. If you really bump it up to 80% and try to do the BBB thing with it, scale the main lifts to 5’s progression so you the supplemental doesn’t turn to grinders. Do a couple cycles like this for the leader, then swap the 5x5 for FSL and go for PR sets in an anchor. But really, I don’t think this would be a good idea, I get that you want to squat more often, but I think there are better ways, more widely used successfully.

What I’d recommend way more than that, as random internet guy advice:
-Full body template from either book (squat 3 times a week, much more sensible layout)
-1000% awesome templates from Jim’s forum, or the new book (more frequent heavy squatting but intelligently designed).


#20

Thanks for advice! Squatting 3 times a weeks was a bit too much, even considering that the volume is pretty intelligently spread out. I tend to recover much better with just 2 days a week.

I looked at 1000% awesome template and it is exactly what I was looking for. The principles are very similar to Faleev’s Program (http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=224675).

Yes, I completely agree that squatting @ 80% TM after Deadlifting is going to be pretty demanding. I tried just one set a few days ago, and concluded that it will certainly be wiser not to. However, in the way the lifts are spread out in 1000% awesome template, it seems to be pretty manageable.

Which new book are you talking about? I only have the original 5/3/1 and beyond.


#21

I was referring to the new book yet to be released, assuming one of the 1000% variations would be in it. Presently, I believe the template SHOULD have only been on Jim’s forum.