T Nation

Squat and/or Deadlift Days

Hi all,

Upon reading tons of posts here I’ve been paring down my somewhat convoluted training programme to be mostly based around compound lifts with just a few isolation exercises thrown in, but am finding that I am so exhausted after squatting or deadlifting that all else seems to suffer.

I have recently dropped out the cardio I was doing in a effort to hang onto all strength gains at the mo and my Mon, Wed, Fri split means I could feasibly do the squatting / deadlifting on their own on Tues & Thurs - As a relative newbie though I’m not sure whether the ‘exhaustion’ I spoke of earlier is a good thing that I should just work through, or whether I would get the full benefits of doing these big compound lifts on their own with no other work on that day to continue hammering those relevent muscles into submission.

Goals are the age-old hypertrophy plus fat-loss but after about two years of… ahem… ‘cutting’… at the mo building some solidity is the priority.

Also, and this is a completely different question but until recently I was Bench Pressing 75kg (don’t laugh - I was soo proud of myself!) for 6x6 and for some reason out of the blue yesterday I was struggling to pump out 65kg for 6reps in what was going to be one of my warmup sets. Does anybody else ever have such large strength discrepancies from one week to the next?

Eating, rest and everything all as normal. I guess/HOPE it was just an off-day.

I’ll try to get as much info as poss in now so here’s the workout - with the cardio I WAS doing until this week still marked down. Any thoughts on that mightily appreciated as well.

BTW I am just under 6’4", around 210lbs (down from an intial 280lb a couple of years ago, and from 230 since end of Jan - all blubber loss plus definitely some respectable visible muscle gain), but still too tubby in the abdomen.

I’d love to just go for one of CWs programmes but I have v little dispoable income at the mo so am working out at home where I have a crappy Weider Bench Press bench, two DBs and a BBs plus about 85kg of weights in total. Oh, and a doorway chinning bar that isn’t wide enough for me to do wide-grip pull-ups but good for palms-towards chin ups. The minute there’s a ‘home workouts for FFBs who are poorer than Kenny from South Park’ I’m up for being the first Guinea Pig.

Mon - Chest, Bicep, Abs
Bench Press
Incline DB Press
Chin Ups x40 (as many sets as need to do them)
Russian Twists with 10kg plate
Standing BB Curl
Reverse Crunch
Weighted Crunch with 10kg plate

Tues
Am: 10 x 30 sec sprint followed by 90secs walk
PM: 100 Press Ups (as many sets as need to do them)

Wed Back, Tri, Shoulders
Rom Deadlift
Bent Over BB Row
BB Shoulder Press
Bent Over DB lateral raise
DB Lateral Raise
Front DB Raise
1 arm DB Shrug
1 arm DB Side Bends
BB Tricep Extensions
Dips (hands on sofa arm, feet on chair)

Thurs
Am: 10 x 30sec(approx) hill run and jog down followed by 30secs walk

Fri - Legs & Abs plus General
Squat
Leg Extension
Hamstring Curl
Incline BB Bench Press
Triset Incline DB Curl,Hammmer Curl, Zottman Curl
Hanging Knee Raise
Weghted Crunch

Sat - Light Cardio ie 40min light jog if I have time.

Sun - Off, dreaming of cake.

Some days I feel I can do more so for example do 1 arm db rows on back day. I genuinely train as hard as poss with only the limiting factors being a lack of space and lack of tons of weights due to working out at home. Oh, and not being able to throw weights down when reaching failure!

Oh, and one last thing. For most exercises I rest 60secs between sets and 2-3mins between exercises. Enough? Too much?

Sorry for all the questions in one hit - I’ve tried to just crack on with training and not overthink every single bit of protein intake and curl but these issues seems to be stumbling blocks somewhat. Thanks in advance.

1-Pack

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
Hi all,

Upon reading tons of posts here I’ve been paring down my somewhat convoluted training programme to be mostly based around compound lifts with just a few isolation exercises thrown in, but am finding that I am so exhausted after squatting or deadlifting that all else seems to suffer.

Also, and this is a completely different question but until recently I was Bench Pressing 75kg (don’t laugh - I was soo proud of myself!) for 6x6 and for some reason out of the blue yesterday I was struggling to pump out 65kg for 6reps in what was going to be one of my warmup sets. Does anybody else ever have such large strength discrepancies from one week to the next?

I’d love to just go for one of CWs programmes but I have v little dispoable income at the mo so am working out at home where I have a crappy Weider Bench Press bench, two DBs and a BBs plus about 85kg of weights in total.

Oh, and one last thing. For most exercises I rest 60secs between sets and 2-3mins between exercises. Enough? Too much?

1-Pack[/quote]

To start answering some of your questions:

1.) Yes, you should be tired after doing squatting and/or deadlifting. You could even say the point of the workout is to get tired, so you’re ahead of the game on that one. Keep working at it, you will adapt. Compound lifts + some isolation is a good mix. Throw-in isolation work to help bring-up any weaknesses you have. I.e. if your Pecs are limiting your bench-press, start doing dumbbell flys, etc.

2.) Yes, you will vary from day-to-day, and from week-to-week. Don’t worry too much. If you do notice that you’re going downhill several workouts in a row, you might be hitting overtraining, and you’ll probably want to back-off a bit and let that muscle-group rest for a few extra days.

3.) At-home workouts are great, and the gear you have is an excellent start. Start by taking that small amount of money and just start making small upgrades over time. Buy some more plates. Buy another barbell. Try and find a store that sells used gear, or look around online for sites that sell cheap gear. Hell, make your own. I don’t have much more than you do right now, but I would consider my set of equipment to be completely adequate to my goals. PM me if you want more ideas on workout gear.

4.) 60 seconds between sets is good for general body-building. 2-3 minutes between exercises is fine too, that one does make as much of a difference as the between-set rest times. You may want to try not resting at all between exercises, it’ll really make your workouts feel like workouts.

Stay Strong,
john3103

[quote]john3103 wrote:

1.) Yes, you should be tired after doing squatting and/or deadlifting. You could even say the point of the workout is to get tired, so you’re ahead of the game on that one. Keep working at it, you will adapt. Compound lifts + some isolation is a good mix. Throw-in isolation work to help bring-up any weaknesses you have. I.e. if your Pecs are limiting your bench-press, start doing dumbbell flys, etc.

2.) Yes, you will vary from day-to-day, and from week-to-week. Don’t worry too much. If you do notice that you’re going downhill several workouts in a row, you might be hitting overtraining, and you’ll probably want to back-off a bit and let that muscle-group rest for a few extra days.

3.) At-home workouts are great, and the gear you have is an excellent start. Start by taking that small amount of money and just start making small upgrades over time. Buy some more plates. Buy another barbell. Try and find a store that sells used gear, or look around online for sites that sell cheap gear. Hell, make your own. I don’t have much more than you do right now, but I would consider my set of equipment to be completely adequate to my goals. PM me if you want more ideas on workout gear.

4.) 60 seconds between sets is good for general body-building. 2-3 minutes between exercises is fine too, that one does make as much of a difference as the between-set rest times. You may want to try not resting at all between exercises, it’ll really make your workouts feel like workouts.

Stay Strong,
john3103[/quote]

Thanks John,

Much appreciated. Sometimes it’s really handy to just know you are on the right track.

I’d been finding that I just couldn’t finish some sets of the subsequent exercises after the squatting and deadlifting - I guess getting through the workout in its entirety at all is a record that I’m doing better!

A previous prob I was having was that workouts were taking about 2hrs and so I’ve tried to cut them down and at the same time jack up the intensity. As a result I did drop out quite a few isolation exercises for arms.

However, I think my triceps are a definite stumbling block with my pressing - In the world of shoulder training shoulders the majority of peeps seem to say you MUST include BB shoulder presses to build mass and strength. Is there a similar Tri exercise that should be the mainstay of a programme that I can do with the aforementioned equipment?

DB Skullcrushers, seated overhead BB tri extensions etc?

As for the no-rest between exercises - I reckon I’d just keel over if I tried that at the moment!

Thanks once again.

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:

However, I think my triceps are a definite stumbling block with my pressing - In the world of shoulder training shoulders the majority of peeps seem to say you MUST include BB shoulder presses to build mass and strength. Is there a similar Tri exercise that should be the mainstay of a programme that I can do with the aforementioned equipment?

DB Skullcrushers, seated overhead BB tri extensions etc?

As for the no-rest between exercises - I reckon I’d just keel over if I tried that at the moment!

Thanks once again.[/quote]

Ok, first off, anyone who ever gives an absolute for a workout recommendation (i.e. everyone MUST do XXXX) is probably wrong. With what I know about your goals, limitations, and current progress, yeah, shoulder pressing is a great way to make progress on your goals. To add more triceps work into your program you might want to try bench-pressing with a close-grip, the wider the grip you use, the more your pecs come into play. Or do the top-half of the motion twice each rep, i.e. press the bar from your chest to lockout, then halfway down, then press up to lockout again, finally down to your chest. That’s one rep. The top-end of benching is triceps dominant, so doing that more will give your tri’s more of a workout.

On the other hand, if you’re sick of bench-pressing, and to give your shoulders a bit of a break from the same movement, you can also try what I call ‘floor-pressing’. Lie down on the floor with two dumbbells in your hands with your elbows on the floor right next to your torso (i.e. your upper-arm next to you, as opposed to extended out with bench-pressing), dumbbell held in a hammer-grip, in the air. Press the dumbbells up, simply by extending your arms upwards. This is the same basic movement as bench-pressing, except it mostly cuts-out the pectoral muscle, and focuses instead on your triceps and deltoids. I would work this one into your workouts in addition to whatever bench-pressing you’re doing. Just make sure to add more rowing to your program to keep your shoulders balanced.

[quote]john3103 wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:

However, I think my triceps are a definite stumbling block with my pressing - In the world of shoulder training shoulders the majority of peeps seem to say you MUST include BB shoulder presses to build mass and strength. Is there a similar Tri exercise that should be the mainstay of a programme that I can do with the aforementioned equipment?

DB Skullcrushers, seated overhead BB tri extensions etc?

As for the no-rest between exercises - I reckon I’d just keel over if I tried that at the moment!

Thanks once again.

Ok, first off, anyone who ever gives an absolute for a workout recommendation (i.e. everyone MUST do XXXX) is probably wrong. With what I know about your goals, limitations, and current progress, yeah, shoulder pressing is a great way to make progress on your goals. To add more triceps work into your program you might want to try bench-pressing with a close-grip, the wider the grip you use, the more your pecs come into play. Or do the top-half of the motion twice each rep, i.e. press the bar from your chest to lockout, then halfway down, then press up to lockout again, finally down to your chest. That’s one rep. The top-end of benching is triceps dominant, so doing that more will give your tri’s more of a workout.

On the other hand, if you’re sick of bench-pressing, and to give your shoulders a bit of a break from the same movement, you can also try what I call ‘floor-pressing’. Lie down on the floor with two dumbbells in your hands with your elbows on the floor right next to your torso (i.e. your upper-arm next to you, as opposed to extended out with bench-pressing), dumbbell held in a hammer-grip, in the air. Press the dumbbells up, simply by extending your arms upwards. This is the same basic movement as bench-pressing, except it mostly cuts-out the pectoral muscle, and focuses instead on your triceps and deltoids. I would work this one into your workouts in addition to whatever bench-pressing you’re doing. Just make sure to add more rowing to your program to keep your shoulders balanced.
[/quote]

Cheers John - Will give the floor pressing a go tonight. Sounds interesting.

Re absolutes - I take your point, but at the same time I think if anyone ever posted a workout on this forum without squats or deadlifts in them they would get flamed from here to eternity!

Thanks again.

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:

Re absolutes - I take your point, but at the same time I think if anyone ever posted a workout on this forum without squats or deadlifts in them they would get flamed from here to eternity!

Thanks again. [/quote]

Frankly, I wouldn’t recomend squatting/deadlifting to everyone. I would recomend absolutly no squatting for lifters with broken or missing legs.

[quote]john3103 wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:

Re absolutes - I take your point, but at the same time I think if anyone ever posted a workout on this forum without squats or deadlifts in them they would get flamed from here to eternity!

Thanks again.

Frankly, I wouldn’t recomend squatting/deadlifting to everyone. I would recomend absolutly no squatting for lifters with broken or missing legs.
[/quote]

lol… They’d probably STILL get flamed

[quote]john3103 wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:

Re absolutes - I take your point, but at the same time I think if anyone ever posted a workout on this forum without squats or deadlifts in them they would get flamed from here to eternity!

Thanks again.

Frankly, I wouldn’t recomend squatting/deadlifting to everyone. I would recomend absolutly no squatting for lifters with broken or missing legs.
[/quote]

And definitely NOT ass to grass squats!

despite being the weakest poster in the history of T-Nation, I’ll offer my 2 pence…

Bench before you deadlift…I’ve found it easier for me that way

[quote]ah_dut wrote:
despite being the weakest poster in the history of T-Nation, I’ll offer my 2 pence…

Bench before you deadlift…I’ve found it easier for me that way[/quote]

Cheers for suggestions ah_dut,

Don’t know about weakest on T-Nation. People here seem to use my 1rm as their warm-up and the only lift where I’m vaguely near my bodyweight is deadlift.

I forsee a ‘who’s the weakest on T-Nation’ thread coming up. lol

i’d suggest doing your squat or deadlift day on monday, when all the benches are bound to be surrounded by a gang of pumped-up meats. Each group will proably have 3-4 guys to a bench, meaning your turn won’t come for another half hour.

Everyone benches on monday and the racks are free to do deadlifts. if you want to waste less time in the gym, bench on any other day BUT monday!

[quote]the german wrote:
i’d suggest doing your squat or deadlift day on monday, when all the benches are bound to be surrounded by a gang of pumped-up meats. Each group will proably have 3-4 guys to a bench, meaning your turn won’t come for another half hour.

Everyone benches on monday and the racks are free to do deadlifts. if you want to waste less time in the gym, bench on any other day BUT monday![/quote]

I’d be terrified if I went in my front room and found my bench surrounded by meatheads!

Along with cash flow, the number one reason why I’m not into gyms…