Some people just don’t get it. When I see arguments such as “if you can squat 3x per week you are either a beginner or training like a pussy”, it’s obvious to me that they don’t understand the concept of complicating the routine to allow this type of training to work. You have to keep a balance between stress and recovery. As the shitty graph I posted above shows, as a lifter gets closer to their genetic potential, the need for training complexity (varying volume and intensity) increases.
An example for beginner training
You can squat 5x5 mon, wed, and fri increasing the weight each workout day. Since the lifter is so far away from their genetic potential, their rate of improvement is very high and they are able to recover fast. This is what “beginner gains” are all about. Once things slow down they make it to the intermediate phase.
An example for a lifter at the intermediate phase:
You may squat heavy once monday with a 5x5 and then light squats wed with a 3x3, then go for a 5rm on friday. That’s squatting 3x per week but with a variation in volume/intensity to keep the lifter progressing. Monday is the stress day and the rest of the week is allowed for recovery and then demonstration of increased performance. Each week the lifter will get a new PR on friday.
At the advanced phase, weekly progress cannot be made anymore so much more complex program is required. The lifter might run an 8 or 12 week periodization cycle where the first 4 weeks are for stress (same as monday in the intermediate lifter) and then the next 4 or 12 weeks will be for recovery and demonstration of performance (the wed and friday in the intermediate).
The concept of varying intensity and volume is the same, it just takes place over a longer period of time and the rate of improvement is much slower since the lifter is so close to their genetic potential.
This is explained fully in Mark Rippetoe’s book Practical Programming for Strength Training.
This example shows the complexity of programming at the intermediate level. As you can see for the 5x5 monday the volume is high and the intensity is moderate. On wednesday’s light day, the volume is significantly lowered while the intensity remains about the same as monday. For friday, the intenisty is high and the volume is low. This could be a 1rm.
Volume refers to the workload. Reps x sets x weight.
Intensity refers to the % of 1rm used.
Thank you for finally posting something up about this…even if it is the GAL forum (?)
This drives me nuts. I’ve gone through periods where I squat, clean, and deadlift EACH 3x a week, and I made progress. I’ve squatted as many as 5x a week before…and made progress. I’ve squatted as little as once a week and made progress.
This is all true. I’ve sqautted 3 times a week since I started lifting and I’m still making progress.
Rippetoe’s PPST goes into all this in great detail and is very informative. Well worth locating.
[quote]elano wrote:
An example for a lifter at the intermediate phase:
You may squat heavy once monday with a 5x5 and then light squats wed with a 3x3, then go for a 5rm on friday. That’s squatting 3x per week but with a variation in volume/intensity to keep the lifter progressing. Monday is the stress day and the rest of the week is allowed for recovery and then demonstration of increased performance. Each week the lifter will get a new PR on friday.
This is explained fully in Mark Rippetoe’s book Practical Programming for Strength Training.
[/quote]
This is what I’m doing now. 5X5 on monday, 5X2 at 80% of 5X5 weight on wednesday, and 1 set of my 5RM on friday. Simple and solid.
I hate to hear people say you can’t squat 3 times a week and that if you can you’re training like a pussy. Sounds to me like they’re the pussy for avoiding the idea like the plague.
Not saying that everyone HAS to squat 3 times a week, but it certainly can be done.
I posted this in GAL to avoid the flames and namecalling that I thought I would get if I posted this in the BB training forum. This has been moved there so I guess it doesn’t matter anymore. What I have posted applies to all categories of weight trainers so I didn’t feel it needed to go directly to the BB forum even though this applies to bb training as well.
I just felt like correcting the misconception that squatting 3x per week meant balls out activity 3x/week. There is careful programming needed to preserve the stress/recovery balance once past the beginners level of performance. I made these graphs and explained them to help those people who may have this misconception. This is not my idea though, These graphs are in greater detail in Rippetoe’s PP book.
Good post elano, and yeah practical programming is a goldmine by Rippetoe. Really good book, I knew I recognized those graphs. If newbies actually understood these graphs and applied them they would be much better off.
Of course you COULD structure your training so that it would allow you to squat heavy three times a week… but, why would we want to do that? We would be missing out on a lot of stimulation for our thighs that we would otherwise get, just for the sake of squatting every other day. You aren’t likely to build a great lower body by training this way, because you’ve sacrificed so much just so you could get stronger a little faster on one exercise right now (which is also going to stall out do to a lack of accessory work, since you leave hardly enough room to recover from the squats alone)
If you’re a powerlifting doing a sheiko program or something, great… have at it… but I don’t see how squatting three times a week would EVER be relevant to a bodybuilder (yes, even a newbie, Starting Strength sucks balls)
[quote]mr popular wrote:
I think you missed the point.
Of course you COULD structure your training so that it would allow you to squat heavy three times a week… but, why would we want to do that? We would be missing out on a lot of stimulation for our thighs that we would otherwise get, just for the sake of squatting every other day. You aren’t likely to build a great lower body by training this way, because you’ve sacrificed so much just so you could get stronger a little faster on one exercise right now (which is also going to stall out do to a lack of accessory work, since you leave hardly enough room to recover from the squats alone)
If you’re a powerlifting doing a sheiko program or something, great… have at it… but I don’t see how squatting three times a week would EVER be relevant to a bodybuilder (yes, even a newbie, Starting Strength sucks balls)[/quote]
Correct me if I’m mistaken, but doesn’t OTS’s Big Beyond Belief have a set up that allows you to squat 2 (maybe 3) times per week? I remember Smalltobig had some pretty good results on that program.
As far as accessory work goes, some can easily be added on to the higher volume day with a small reduction in volume in squats to target any apparent weaknesses. Otherwise, I can’t see the problem with squatting to get better at squats.
Although I think there is a part of the program where your body is trained three times a week, I don’t believe any of the BBB guys are actually back squatting heavy three times a week.
And again, no one ever said there is anything wrong with squatting more often if all you care about is squatting, but for BODYBUILDING it is not a useful idea.
[quote]The other Rob wrote:
mr popular wrote:
I think you missed the point.
Of course you COULD structure your training so that it would allow you to squat heavy three times a week… but, why would we want to do that? We would be missing out on a lot of stimulation for our thighs that we would otherwise get, just for the sake of squatting every other day. You aren’t likely to build a great lower body by training this way, because you’ve sacrificed so much just so you could get stronger a little faster on one exercise right now (which is also going to stall out do to a lack of accessory work, since you leave hardly enough room to recover from the squats alone)
If you’re a powerlifting doing a sheiko program or something, great… have at it… but I don’t see how squatting three times a week would EVER be relevant to a bodybuilder (yes, even a newbie, Starting Strength sucks balls)
Correct me if I’m mistaken, but doesn’t OTS’s Big Beyond Belief have a set up that allows you to squat 2 (maybe 3) times per week? I remember Smalltobig had some pretty good results on that program.
As far as accessory work goes, some can easily be added on to the higher volume day with a small reduction in volume in squats to target any apparent weaknesses. Otherwise, I can’t see the problem with squatting to get better at squats.[/quote]
Not everyone agrees, or does well, with BBB protocols.
And again, no one ever said there is anything wrong with squatting more often if all you care about is squatting, but for BODYBUILDING it is not a useful idea.[/quote]
This is probably the main theme to be hit on here, there is no particular reason to do anything in training, unless it lines up with your goals and allows you to get to your goals optimally. If you’re squatting three times a week to squat three times a week, that’s fine. If you’re squatting three times a week because you can recover and it allows you to progress the fastest, that’s fine as well.
[quote]mr popular wrote:
I think you missed the point.
Of course you COULD structure your training so that it would allow you to squat heavy three times a week… but, why would we want to do that? We would be missing out on a lot of stimulation for our thighs that we would otherwise get, just for the sake of squatting every other day. You aren’t likely to build a great lower body by training this way, because you’ve sacrificed so much just so you could get stronger a little faster on one exercise right now (which is also going to stall out do to a lack of accessory work, since you leave hardly enough room to recover from the squats alone)
If you’re a powerlifting doing a sheiko program or something, great… have at it… but I don’t see how squatting three times a week would EVER be relevant to a bodybuilder (yes, even a newbie, Starting Strength sucks balls)[/quote]
You are the master of “I think you missed the point”. Jesus what point did I miss, this is my thread! In fact I think YOU missed MY point.
Don’t knock it till you rock it. Squatting often has a lot to offer and the fact that you still don’t believe that it’s possible shows that you don’t understand the concepts stated in the first 2 posts. This isn’t a split vs full body thread. The stress/recovery concept applies to split style training as well.
As you may already know, progression past the intermediate phase in a split routine will eventually stall too since there is a greater need for complexity past a certain point. If you squat only once per week, you will eventually get to a point where you cannot add weight weekly anymore. Refer to Fig 1
The idea isn’t necessarily improving workout to workout (except for beginners), more that a collection of workouts act as a stress/recovery cycle that results in you being stronger than before.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
elano wrote:
The idea isn’t necessarily improving workout to workout (except for beginners), more that a collection of workouts act as a stress/recovery cycle that results in you being stronger than before.
I am no beginner, and the idea is absolutely about improving workout to workout. You guys with all that pseudo-scientific bullshit really make my eyes go crossed. “Stress-recovery cycle”… I don’t even want to ask what the fuck that is. I’m a simple-minded person who thinks and sets goals linearly. I’ve got pretty damn close to a 500 lb raw bench just adding a small amount of weight to the bar or squeezing out another rep over the years. Using a “stress-recovery” cycle, I might be able to bench more than that… but I really don’t give that much of a shit about it honestly. I don’t think 530 lbs will do anything for me that 490 won’t. I LOVE training- its simple, honest and straight-forward. If I were to start following protocols from guys with Eastern European names, doing waves, speed training, bla bla… it wouldn’t be fun anymore.
I guess I’m saying that the fancy training may have a place in high level athletics, but for 99.9% of us, linear progression will get you VERY big and strong… and thats all that we are really after anyway.[/quote]
I would echo what MODOK is saying here, and this is also why I look up to people like him and Professor X - because they truly enjoy lifting weights, and they are right where I want to be years from now: still loving it and keeping things simple.
I would also add that the people who don’t keep things simple are VERY rarely the ones who wind up being the biggest strongest guys in their gym. Even someone like Christian Thibhardtospell, very well versed in all this scientific stuff, has openly stated that he has never followed an exact program before.
This isn’t nuclear freaking engineering, you aren’t saving the world, you are just building a better body.
I’m not questioning anybody’s achievements. I am just trying to explain how this shit works for those people who immediately call bullshit on any full body routine or any routine that has you work a muscle group more than once per week. Sure other things work great but I made this thread to try and give a little credibility to the full body method.
I think this shit just sounds more complicated than it is. It’s all really really simple. By stress/recovery cycle I am just referring to the process of stimulating a muscle enough to grow and then allowing time to let it recover. I actually just made up that term because I thought it was self explanatory.
[quote]mr popular wrote:
I think you missed the point.
Of course you COULD structure your training so that it would allow you to squat heavy three times a week… but, why would we want to do that? We would be missing out on a lot of stimulation for our thighs that we would otherwise get, just for the sake of squatting every other day. You aren’t likely to build a great lower body by training this way, because you’ve sacrificed so much just so you could get stronger a little faster on one exercise right now (which is also going to stall out do to a lack of accessory work, since you leave hardly enough room to recover from the squats alone)
If you’re a powerlifting doing a sheiko program or something, great… have at it… but I don’t see how squatting three times a week would EVER be relevant to a bodybuilder (yes, even a newbie, Starting Strength sucks balls)[/quote]
I respectfully disagree. Now, I do readily grant you that simply and exclusively squatting 3x a week does not as easily allow you to focus on particular aspects of your quads that you want to improve (“sweep” vs. “tear drop” vs sartorious whatever). But I would submit that you don’t know what you’re talking about when you say that you are missing out on stimulation for your thighs AND when you say that you leave hardly any room recover from the squats alone. You have obviously never tried this programming for any length of time before. When I did it, I was able to do other stuff both for legs and upper body, naturally.
An additional thing that is not noticed or remembered, I guess, by many people is that increased frequency has does not require as much intensity to grow. In other words, you don’t have to perform to your utmost every time you train in order to grow (***this is not and should not be taken to mean that you don’t bust ass ever. No excuses for being a pussy). 80% of your 5RM (~80% 1 RM) is what, like 65% of your 1RM? That’s a warm-up. That’s also your Wednesday squat “workout” and you’re only performing between 9-15 TOTAL reps. That is not hard to recover from for Friday’s workout. Also not as much overall volume is required to obtain results as if you were hammering your legs on only 1 day of the week.
Yes, it’s more adept for powerlifting or strongman or O-lifting…but one thing we know is that if there’s one thing you want to specialize in, you work it more frequently. Thibs has posted dozens of articles on this premise and we both know he knows his shit. This sort of thing can be tweaked for BB purposes.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
elano wrote:
The idea isn’t necessarily improving workout to workout (except for beginners), more that a collection of workouts act as a stress/recovery cycle that results in you being stronger than before.
I am no beginner, and the idea is absolutely about improving workout to workout. You guys with all that pseudo-scientific bullshit really make my eyes go crossed. “Stress-recovery cycle”… I don’t even want to ask what the fuck that is. I’m a simple-minded person who thinks and sets goals linearly. I’ve got pretty damn close to a 500 lb raw bench just adding a small amount of weight to the bar or squeezing out another rep over the years. Using a “stress-recovery” cycle, I might be able to bench more than that… but I really don’t give that much of a shit about it honestly. I don’t think 530 lbs will do anything for me that 490 won’t. I LOVE training- its simple, honest and straight-forward. If I were to start following protocols from guys with Eastern European names, doing waves, speed training, bla bla… it wouldn’t be fun anymore.
I guess I’m saying that the fancy training may have a place in high level athletics, but for 99.9% of us, linear progression will get you VERY big and strong… and thats all that we are really after anyway.[/quote]
I think you guys missed each other on this. Elano meant that the goal was not to improve from Monday to Wednesday to Friday in one week, which I think would be suicide and pointless. Obviously you would want to improve in some fashion from monday to monday, or from month to month if following a prescribed volume/intensity wave like many O-lifters do.
On the other hand you have a point that heavy hard training should be fun because it’s your lifestyle, and if it’s not fun, then don’t do it unless. Some people get a kick out of trying to get the most optimal training possible, so they get into east european protocols and waves and all that. It’s fun for them; the science is fun for them. Some people just like to go in and grind out heavy shit.
So I think you’re both right. I think this training can in fact be very useful to build big ass legs, and even touch them up if you plan it properly. But if you don’t like the technical side and prefer to just do your thing, or if you get bored easily, then don’t do it.
Personally I am of the “science is fun” approach and I enjoy thinking things out like that. It can lead to overanalysis, but it’s fun…for me.
(?)