T Nation

Sprinter VS Body Builder

Truth be told I am quite impressed with some of you guys!!!

I have only been reading this section for a couple of weeks now because of my earlier post titled medication and gear. I have been a t-mag reader for years but I always disregarded these sections. I am an ex- sprinter and I always thought of bodybuilders who juiced, as idiots who just took a mass amount of gear. I have to admit I was wrong, at least about some of them. I was not at the super elite level where I would have a professional chemist writing cycles for me and monitoring me, but I did get a scholarship so I guess I was ok. I did consult with experts who charged me about $200 an hour to talk to me about juice. Some were quite worth it, some were a rip off. I realize that the cycles which my teammates and I were using were quite different than the ones I see you guys suggesting. And difficult for me to admit, some cycles seem more thought out that the ones I did. Some might say that testing becomes an issue that is why the cycles are different. I can tell you from first hand experience that testing (at least in the NCAA) is a joke. Lets just say that it is easy to get someone to turn his head while you pour clean piss in a cup. I will not tell you which university I ran for so that I don’t ruin that chances for others. And victor is not my real name, that you probably figured?. lol. Aside form that, one might explain the difference of cycles as a result of deferent goals held by a sprinter rather that a bodybuilder. That withstanding, there still is a more valid chemical mixture than one most track athletes are using. Especially in regards to steroid class, anabolic vs androgenic ratio, aromatization, and affinity to bond to the AR receptor more that others.

I know you guys are busy and have lives, but I would like to give you two typical cycles that I would have done and have you guys critic it. Any input would be greatly appreciated. This is of great interest to me because of two reasons. One is that I would like to do some more cycles for vanity reasons. I don’t have aspirations of getting monster huge but my body is not the way it used to be and I miss it. My training is ok but nothing like when I was competing and my diet is great, (tooting my own horn pleases me?..lol). The second reason is that I have some friends that are still competing and anything that I learn will indirectly help them. Any way here they are?..

  1. Tren ------------------- 75 mg every day for weeks 1-12
    Winstrol--------------- 50 mg every day for weeks 1-12
    Primo depot ---------- 600 mg on week 1, and 400 mg a week for weeks 2-11
    Clomid----------------- 25 mg (half tablet) everyday for weeks 3-10,
    50 mg everyday for weeks 11-12,
    100 mg everyday for weeks 13-15
    HCG ------------------ 2000 i.u. every other day for week 13
    Nolvadex ------------- 10 mg every day for weeks 13-15

  2. E.Q. ----------------- 600 mg on week 1, and 400 mg a week on weeks 2-11
    Winstrol ------------ 50 mg every day for weeks 1-12
    Test cyp ------------- 800 mg on week 1, and 400mg on weeks 2-11
    HGH ---------------- 4 i.u. every day for weeks 1-15
    Clomid -------------- 50 mg everyday for weeks 1-12,
    100 mg every day for weeks 13-15
    HCG ---------------- 2000 i.u. every other day for week 13
    Nolvadex ----------- 10 mg every day for weeks 1 and 13-15
    10 mg every other day for weeks 2-12

I thank you in advance for your help. Also, you may be very critical, cruel if you must, I will not take offence.

I’ll critique this one as I have never used tren before…
2) E.Q. ----------------- 600 mg on week 1, and 400 mg a week on weeks 2-11
Winstrol ------------ 50 mg every day for weeks 1-12
Test cyp ------------- 800 mg on week 1, and 400mg on weeks 2-11
HGH ---------------- 4 i.u. every day for weeks 1-15
Clomid -------------- 50 mg everyday for weeks 1-12,
100 mg every day for weeks 13-15
HCG ---------------- 2000 i.u. every other day for week 13
Nolvadex ----------- 10 mg every day for weeks 1 and 13-15
10 mg every other day for weeks 2-12

To be blunt, this cycle has the potential to be very effective, but there are several things I don’t like.
-Why frontload the test 2x the weekly dosage but only frontload the eq 1.5x? IMO, one should frontload long esters 2x the weekly amt the first week and 1.5x the second week.
-Winstrol 50mg ed for 12 weeks? I’m one of the biggest proponents of running orals for longer durations than most advocate and I’m going to say that 12 weeks is too much…I personally can’t stand winstrol,and would rather see you run anavar instead, but if you must go w/ winstrol,weeks 4-12 at 50mg ed is what I’d suggest.
-hcg dosing should be kept to 1000i.u. or less each inj. to prevent permanent desensitization of the testicles. It should also be shot ed as it’s half-life is 12-16 hours if gone sub-q.
-HGH ran for that duration is going to require some cytomel to boost the depleted tsh levels that hgh has induced. Also, 4i.u. might make a little difference in a 45 y/o man, but someone in their 20’s produces 2i.u. ed on their own, so it would be a waste to consider.
-clomid is nowhere near as effective as an estrogen antagonist as nolvadex is, and you do have some aromatizable compounds in the cycle, so the better choice would be nolvadex 10-20mg ed for weeks 1-12 and then clomid for 4 weeks post cycle.
That’s my take.

MK

  1. Tren ------------------- 75 mg every day for weeks 1-12
    Winstrol--------------- 50 mg every day for weeks 1-12
    Primo depot ---------- 600 mg on week 1, and 400 mg a week for weeks 2-11
    Clomid----------------- 25 mg (half tablet) everyday for weeks 3-10,
    50 mg everyday for weeks 11-12,
    100 mg everyday for weeks 13-15
    HCG ------------------ 2000 i.u. every other day for week 13
    Nolvadex ------------- 10 mg every day for weeks 13-15

I like this cycle. The only thing I disagree with is your hcg protocol, as it can be run in much smaller dosages, using an eod protocol or every third day. use no more than 1000 iu at a time, I usually max at 500 iu at one time for the above stated reasons.

Clomid is not needed on this cycle, as all drugs do not aromatize. This is actually a very good cycle as all avenues have been accounted for, both class 1 and class 2 drugs.

I have to comment again on what MK says about taking anavar instead of winstrol. This is a rediculous comment, especially the fact that anavar and equipoise have simmilar properties, whereas winstrol would be much more complementary to that cycle. His reasoning is that he doesn’t believe in the class 1/ class 2 theories… of course he probably has problems with the theory of evolution as well and the kinetic molecular theory also!

As for doing a 17-AA for 12 weeks, that is a long time. If you insist make sure you monitor your liver values throughout. I might also add that your body can only gain muscle for a certain length of time, before it needs a break. this usually occurs before the 12 week mark, so most likely 4 of those weeks will be almost useless meaning your gains will level off and you will not gain anymore untill you take a rest, decrease your dosages, change it up - if you know what I mean.

Of course I might add that you are competing in a sport where races are won or lost by 1/100th of a second - doses don’t always have to be that high

Thank you mike and P # 22, or any one that might reply later.

I appreciate all of your help!!!

Your generosity will not be forgotten.

If any one needs critique on their speed improvement workouts (not that I suspect you guys do), I would be more that happy to help. For there is not much I can offer in return to you guys in AAS knowledge.

The things you have said, makes sense, and I will take them into consideration when doing my next cycle. I plan on doing one starting in mid march (yes I am an early planner?.lol), When I do come up with the final draft I would like to run it by you guys, If you don?t mind of course.
Any way, happy New Year and thank you.

[quote]Victor468 wrote:
Thank you mike and P # 22, or any one that might reply later.

I appreciate all of your help!!!

Your generosity will not be forgotten.

If any one needs critique on their speed improvement workouts (not that I suspect you guys do), I would be more that happy to help. For there is not much I can offer in return to you guys in AAS knowledge.

The things you have said, makes sense, and I will take them into consideration when doing my next cycle. I plan on doing one starting in mid march (yes I am an early planner?.lol), When I do come up with the final draft I would like to run it by you guys, If you don?t mind of course.
Any way, happy New Year and thank you.

[/quote]

Ah, I actually might take you up on the speed workout improvement. I can’t offer you any advice on steriods, so you don’t really have any incentive to help me, but if you could spare some time that would be greatly appreciated.

Victor, turn your PM’s on man.

"I have to comment again on what MK says about taking anavar instead of winstrol. This is a rediculous comment, especially the fact that anavar and equipoise have simmilar properties, whereas winstrol would be much more complementary to that cycle. His reasoning is that he doesn’t believe in the class 1/ class 2 theories… of course he probably has problems with the theory of evolution as well and the kinetic molecular theory also!
ACTUALLY prisoner, I wasn’t even thinking about the synergy that you claim one receives by stacking a class1/class2…MY logic was based upon the simple fact that winstrol decreases collagen synthesis, as does testosterone cypionate, and even though equipoise increases collagen synthesis, it’s not going to be enough to offset the destruction that the test and winstrol will inflict.
And your comment about the theory of evolution/kinetic molecular theory is just not applicable to our discussion on AAS theories…I’m pretty confident there’s a little more evidence to support the theory of evolution and theory of kinetic molecular theory than the theory proposed by bill roberts on class1/class2 synergism…cy wilson, thinks there’s much more to AAS synergism than just class1/class2 steroids…Does this make his comments ridiculous as well?
I’ll ask this question and leave it at that:
Which is a more beneficial scenario; Taking the winstrol instead of the anavar and tearing a bicep/hamstring/pec/etc. and not only wasting the $ spent for your cycle, but also being out of commission for several months, OR taking the anavar, which also increases collagen synthesis I might add, and being confident that you’re going to be able to train the entire duration of the cycle at 100% health???

MK

MK. This is pretty much a moot point now. You are willing to admit that different steroids have diverse effects on the body, i.e. changes in collagen synthesis, yet you cannot admit that some steroids mechanism of action or causation of muscle growth may also be different, causing a complementary, effect when used together. Infact, your entire thought process is contradictory, as you routinely recomend cycles using multiple drug combinations, yet according to you there is absolutely no basis for stacking these drugs as different classes of steroids just simply do not exist. The only rationale for doing multiple drug cycles is based on the principle that if you use more drugs that are complementary to one another, then a lower overall dose can be used to achieve the desired effect, which means less side effects, and better results.
In addition to this I find your sermon about collegen synthesis to be highly overrated. Yes there are some steroids that increase it, and there are some steroids, that may not increase it -possibly even slightly decrease it, however the steroids that do decrease this are not corticosteroids! The reduction is minimal, and can easily be offset by nutrition, and using other complementary steroids that increase collagen, and that can reduce overall dosages, while offseting these negatives, much in the way that you would take ancillaries.
For example, in this guys first cycle Primo is used with Winstrol, and in his second cycle equipoise is used with winstrol. I see no problems with these combination as far a joint health.
And your knock on two of the most knowlegable bros about AAS doesn’t hold any water with me. Individuals who hold University degrees, and have devoted their study of sciences towards the study of anabolic steroids are few and far between. Granted the pharmokinetics of every drug is much more complicated then just being able to group them as ‘class 1’ or ‘class 2’, all drugs are put into groups such as these for simplicity. The fact remains however that some drugs are going to be more similar in their mechanism of action then other drugs, meaning some will be more complementary to each other, and some will not, as in the equipoise and anavar vs equipoise and winstrol example.
Finally, Winstrol doesn’t cause injuries. Stupid training does. Using a drug that masks pain such as nandrolone by lubricating joints, while you over tax your body, vs using Winstrol, which doesn’t cause exessive joint lubrication -meaning that you will actually feel when you are lifting too heavy for maintaince of joint and tendon health; Injuries in the gym are caused by stupidity, and recklessness. I would much rather recomend winstrol to someone who doesn’t know how to train, with correct form, or lifts too much weight, or has problems listening to his own body, then recomending nandrolone or equipoise, which will mask pain and symptoms of joint trama, allowing an individual to continue training and hurting themselves without any knowlege of the fact, untill they go off cycle, and experience the inflamitory rebound. I could go on, and on, but I won’t anymore, as I believe I have made my points.

“I would much rather recomend winstrol to someone who doesn’t know how to train, with correct form, or lifts too much weight, or has problems listening to his own body.”

Recommend a good practitioner in the sports medicine field as well, as that’s where he’s going to end up. Just my .02

MK